I am planning to do some morphs to fix the errors introduced by Poser rigging limitations. Does anyone know of any software that will transform a correction on the posed mesh to the proper morph to be applied to the un-posed mesh? I've started writing my own, but it would be a lot simpler just to buy someting ready to go!

The Daz setup tools you can export the posed figure make the morph corrections and only the vertices moved get added to the morph.

Or P8 morph brush now morphs across body parts and you can save copies of the morph,

Same thing only in Poser you do it righ in Poser and DS setup tools you send it out.

The problem I am used to in Poser is that morphs get applied before the pose, so that any fix to the arm made while the arm is down won't correspond to the fix needed to be applied to the up/zero position arm prior to appling the pose. I want to fix the pose in ZBrush and convert it to a morph. This will require transforming all of the deltas from the local surface coordinates of the posed mesh to the local surface coordinates of the default pose mesh, to the best of my understanding.

Like phantom3D said, MorphLoader Pro in DAZ Studio can do what you want.

I load the figure into Studio, pose it, and export the posed, welded and upscaled object to ZBrush.

Then I'm finished I export the fixed object  using MLP to convert it into morphs.
Finally I export the cr2 including the fix morphs back to Poser.

One drawback: Studio's and Poser's joint handling is (slightly) different.
The fix morphs made using Studio will work perfectly in Studio, but only "almost perfectly" in Poser.
So I usually need a little bit of additional MorphBrush work to "fix" the "fix-poses" for Poser.

Works quite well, but of course a "reverse morphing" system based solely on the Poser rigging (especially now that we can have multiple capsule shaped falloff zones) would be even better !

So if you'd write such a system for Poser, I'd definitely buy it !
(Hates bad joints !) ;-)

"The problem I am used to in Poser is that morphs get applied before the pose, so that any fix to the arm made while the arm is down won't correspond to the fix needed to be applied to the up/zero position arm prior to appling the pose. I want to fix the pose in ZBrush and convert it to a morph. This will require transforming all of the deltas from the local surface coordinates of the posed mesh to the local surface coordinates of the default pose mesh, to the best of my understanding."

The Poser MorphBrush uses a custom channel that applies the morph before the joint deformations.

You can also move a morph manually in the cr2 to be applied that way.

Also with the DP in P8 you can set up the morphs as JCM's But I like the DS setup tools as well, Different options for both, so if you have P8 and ZBrush, get the setup tools or at least Morph loader Pro and you're set for all sorts of setup options for morphs and rigging.  Some other tools that come in very handy are Poser Power tools  here in the store.

"The Poser MorphBrush uses a custom channel that applies the morph before the joint deformations."

Unless things have changed since P6, all the morphs (meaning the deltas for the vertices) get applied before any rigging affects (JCMs control how much of the morph gets applied as a function of the joint).

My approach is to tie a local coordinate system to each vertex so I can use the base and posed objects to map all deltas on the posed mesh back to the unposed one (so a delta-x when the arm is down becomes a delta-y in the default pose when the arm is up). This doesn't have anything directly to do with the rigging, it is just a way to clean up rigging issues after the fact (using ZB).

If DS does the equivalent of this, I should look at it. I don't suppose it lets you export figures without munging the vertex order (like Poser is famous for)? Dealing with sliced & diced mesh is a pain I can do without.

Actually, they did.

A lot ! ;-)

Less than 5 minutes for both shoulders.
I worked directly on the posed mesh in Poser 8.

No welding, no exporting, no nothing.
Pose the mesh, start Poser's magic wa..., ermm, morphbrush, and just fix anything you want.

"I don't suppose it lets you export figures without munging the vertex order..."

Studio's MorphLoaderPro can do exactly that.

You export a welded and/or posed figure, safe the pose, then do with the mesh anything you want in a modeller, and finally MLP will turn everything back into a working figure with a nice orderly set of morphs with all joint deformations edited out.

Just to clarify, MorphLoaderPro will export a version of the mesh that exactly matches the vertex order and count of the original obj file?

Hm, no.

Studio has an object exporter that lets you export a welded and/or scaled copy of the mesh.
I actually don't know if that copy has the exact same vertex order as the unwelded original. (I doubt it)

But it doesn't matter, because MLP can take that copy as a whole and translate it back into a useable full body morph for you with basically a single mouseclick.

It "memorises" the original vertex count and order and just restores it to split the welded mesh back into the standard grouped poser mesh.
It then uses that re-split mesh to create morphs for you.

It also "memorises" joint deformations.
If you posed the mesh before exporting, save the pose, then "feed" MLP the pose tile and it will subtract the deformations from the new morphs you did.

Great little tool. Really wouldn't know how to work without it anymore.

Poser and Studio are the only 3D applications that I know of that don't let you export a 3D object the same way you import it (I mean vertex count and order as well as file format)!

I have to wonder if that is by design rather than oversight. Afterall, if you could export in the same format as the original character it would be that much easier to create a new character based on the same mesh (like SP3 and V3). Maybe they really don't want to see that....

Hmm, I think you're mixing a few things up ?

If you export from Poser the correct way, the object file will be the exact same as the one you can find in the geometry folder.

Only if you chose "weld" from the export dialog the vertex order will be changed.
Of course an unwelded object will split when you try to smooth it in ZBrush or similar, but that's not Poser's fault.

The problem is that Studio and Poser rigging needs a grouped/split object to work, while other rigging systems work with an un-split object file.

So the actual "problem" is the Poser/Studio rigging.

But with MLP and the Morphbrush that "problem" is really not a problem anymore.

The only other solution would be to introduce weightmapping as a new rigging system, but this would:

a) Break compatibility with ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING already out there
b) Cost lots of $$$ and time to implement
c) Would be no actual improvement anyway now that we finally have full control over how a mesh bends in both Poser and Studio.

So, hmm, I honestly don't see where the problem is ?

You want better joints in Poser or Studio ?
Two years ago that was a BIG problem.

But now you can have any joints you want.

:-)

"If you export from Poser the correct way, the object file will be the exact same as the one you can find in the geometry folder."

Then please tell me the correct way!

When I export V4 from P6 I get an obj with 69759 vertices whereas blMilWom_v4.obj has 67619, which is 2140 less. Choosing weld before export doesn't change the vertex count. It welds the mesh and leaves 2040 free vertices.

"Only if you chose "weld" from the export dialog the vertex order will be changed.
Of course an unwelded object will split when you try to smooth it in ZBrush or similar, but that's not Poser's fault."

Given that the original mesh is not split into body parts and has no issues in ZBrush, you seem to have just contradicted your statement I quoted first.

"So, hmm, I honestly don't see where the problem is ?"

Some of us like to develop morphs outside of Poser and life is much easier working on a mesh that hasn't been carved up into pieces. The problem isn't with Poser rigging, the problem is Posers inability to export an obj with the same vertex count/order as the inported object if the obj has groups like V4.

Like I said, Poser and DS are the only two 3D apps I know of that won't let you save off a geometry with the same vertex order/count as it had on import. This does make it more challenging to develop full body morphs in other applications. If you do everything from within either application, then I agree that it is not an issue.

Then please tell me the correct way!

Window/PythonScripts/Utility Funcs/UnCompressFiles

This will uncompress your obj files for your figures. Once that's done go grab them, they are either in the geometries folder or the libraries/character folder. The figure obj's are in a zero pose and centered on stage...so don't move them.
Model around them or sculpt directly ontop of them in Zbrush.

missy woot!

BloodRoseDesign,
I know how to access the original obj files (they are what I am used to working on).

Noxiart stated that it is possible to export (morphed) object files from Poser in a way that does not alter the vertex count/order from the original (obj in the geometries folder).

Your answer does not answer the question of how he does this.

If all you want is the correct vertex order on a welded obj from Poser just use kewekis morpher (SP?) to reorder it. its  a freebie here. However noxiart is correct if you export the obj from Poser unwelded it does indeed have the correct vertex order, 3DS max also exports a grouped obj in pieces, so its nothing new.

Also if you have ZBrush you already have an app that is able to transfer only the moved vertex to your mesh, you do know about layers?

"However noxiart is correct if you export the obj from Poser unwelded it does indeed have the correct vertex order"

At least in P6, all the groups are in separate (disconnected) pieces when exported without welding. V4 picks up 2040 additional vertices in the process. This is not the same vertex count/order as the original mesh and the result cannot be used as a morph target in another app (like Lightwave). Welding the duplicate vertices in LW or UVMapper results in the right number of vertices, but they are in the wrong order.

The vertex order for the individual groups may well be the same as it was in the original mesh, but a split mesh with extra vertices isn't very useful outside of poser. I don't know about Max, but in both Maya and LW it is useless as a morph target if it doesn't have the same vertex number and order.

Well you've been given the info to correct that if you must.

Here's a link this will reorder your vertex of your welded, exported mesh to the original mesh vertex order    .www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/download_item.php

"If all you want is the correct vertex order on a welded obj from Poser just use kewekis morpher (SP?) to reorder it. its  a freebie here. "

Morpher is a great utility. Unfortunately, it requires the use of the unwelded exported mesh as the reference and does not work using the original obj as the reference. That is fine for getting morphs back into poser, but not for getting them onto the original mesh (outside of poser).

I haven't tried layers in ZB yet, it sounds like I need to!

Check to make sure all your vertex are actually welded and it has the same number of vertex in the mesh. I have been using it for years, you are too quick to give up. Also is this thread for morph fixes in Poser as stated or for maya and lightwave?

As you have mentioned yourself maya and lightwave also change the vertex numbers of the seems when they weld them, as I happen to know Max and ZBrush do as well, so its not only Poser and studio that change the vertex numbers when they weld seems. In fact I cant think of any app that does not change the vertex numbers of seems when they weld them, can you?

Yes, what phantom3D said.

The object file in the geometry folder is usually "pre-welded"
(Not all, but many are)
If you import it into ZBrush, it won't split when smoothed.

Let's call it "A"

Once you "call" it via a cr2, it is split into groups by Poser, which changes both vertex sequence and count.
That's just how Poser rigging works.

Let's call that "B"

You can morph the "A" object however you like as morphing doesn't change the vertex count or sequence.
But to use it as "Poser morphs" which other people can inject into their (split) Poser figures, you must first let Poser split it back into groups via a cr2 and THEN export the morphs for every bodypart..

There are several ways to automate this process, but IMO MorphLoaderPRO is the most convenient.

IF your goal is morphs made for Poser.

If you want to convert a figure for use in  MAYA or Lightwave and rig it there, sorry, I'm not sure I can help.

Could it be you want to use the (premade) DAZ morphs in Lightwave or MAYA with weightmap rigging ?

If so, you'd need to export first the base mesh and then every single of those DAZ morphs as a welded object file using DAZ Studio and the rigging tools..
(You can also scale them up at the same time to better match MAYA's internal size)

Then you should have a set of DAZ morphs that work with a 100% welded object file.

Here is a quick rundown of using the layers function in ZBrush on a posed welded mesh and transfering just the moved vertices to the unposed original mesh from the geometries folder.

First pose the figure in poser, then export the figure welded and with groups. Now check in Zbrush or other app to make sure all seams are actually welded. I have not worked with V4/M4 in a long time but if I remembe correctly they do not weld seems very well from Poser . I dont know why, I never have that problem with my own figures. Maybe zero the figure first. You may need to use a different app to weld the seems, but they must end up with the same number of vertices as the original mesh.

Use kawekis morpher to reorder the vertices to the original. Now you have a posed mesh and the original with the same vertice numbering.

Import the posed mesh into ZBrush. Go to the layers and click on new layer, now do your sculpting. Once you are done sculpting the morph, go to the layers and click on new again, you now have a second layer. Click the little eye icon next to the first layer. Now with your figure still in the scene import the unposed original mesh into ZBrush (just import not import and add) Your posed mesh will dissappear and the original mesh will be in the veiwport. Now go to the original first layer that you earlier clicked the eye icon, and click the eye icon again, and your morph will be magically tranfered to the unposed mesh, only the vertices that you moved.

I will mention that this will not solve all problems with the bend because of the way morphs are implemented in older versions of Poser, you will still need to work on it with the morph brush.

If you obtain Poser 8 you need not go through all this, Just pose your figure use the morph brush across seems and all and fix the bend as you wish, then zero the morph and Use the DP (dependent parameters) to set that morph up as a JCM. Dependent Parameters allows you to have anything with a dial controle anything else with a dial, and how much and when it starts and ends. So if you want the X-rot of the thigh to controle your morph as it bends you set the morph up to be controled by that body part, and you can delay the morph from kicking in and you can say how fast it is dialed in as the leg bends. Pretty Cool :)

"Check to make sure all your vertex are actually welded and it has the same number of vertex in the mesh. I have been using it for years, you are too quick to give up. Also is this thread for morph fixes in Poser as stated or for maya and lightwave?
"
When I export V4 from P6, the vertex count is 69759 whether the mesh is exported as "welded" or not. The differences are that the welded version replaces all duplicate vertices at group boundaries with a welded vertex plus a free vertex. Thus, the welded version has 2140 more vertices than the original V4 obj file.

The only options I can think of are:
blMilWom.obj as Original, welded export as Morphed
blMilWom.obj as Original, welded export with unattached vertices deleted as Morphed
blMilWom.obj as Original, welded export with unattached vertices merged as Morphed

None of these works. Morpher seems to really want the split/unwelded mesh as the reference.

The issue of export came up because my ideal workflow is to add morphs and/or poses in Poser, export the obj, massage the obj in another application (LW,ZB, and/or Maya), and then generate a FBM based on the original mesh as reference and the massaged mesh as the target. This requires that the original and massaged have the same vertex order/number. N.B. I'm not saying this is the only workflow, just my ideal one.

I really do appreciate all the suggestions. I'll try the layers in ZB later today!

Hi Parthius, I could not find my install files for V4 at the moment, they're here but who knows.  I found M4 install files and installed it and triedseveral times. Yup the vertex count comes out different every time no matter if all seems are welded or not. This of course will not work with the morpher.

My own figure Brad comes out with a perfect vertice count every time and works perfectly with morpher. I could not begin to hazard a guess even why the daz figure ends up that way, it should not IMO. Perhaps someone else here has the answer.

anyway off to delete M4 and clean up all those files fortunately I used an alternate runtime :)

This vertex thing got me curious, so I did some more experimenting. I used MakeOBJ by AnthonyAppleyard and welded all very close vertices. This then gave me the exact same number of vertices as the original obj. I then ran it through morpher to get the numbering correct. It comes out garbled. So I then ran it through UVmapper and did the reorder vertices.  UV mapper comes back with a message that says "Differing index arrays"

I dont know what to think of that, both obj's now have the exact same number of vertices, and poly count, but a differing index array. Perhaps you are correct and it is some type of silly copyright protection.

Well my figures work quite well with morpher, so I am pleased. I am going to quit messing with M4 now and leave it to you or others who are interested.

Moral of story: Find a workflow that works and stick with it LOL!

I first bought UVMapper Pro in the hopes that it would solve this problem. Apparently it is only geared to fix the order for a single group. I am working on a utility to handle multiple groups but it will be a while before it is done, so I would much rather find an off the shelf solution.

Cheers, Parthius

Have you considered Blacksmith3D Morph v3.3 or is it not advanced enough to do what you want? It can import (most?) Poser CR2 files directly. The program also has import and export abilities that may not have the same problems that Poser has. The program is still available at DAZ3D for 50% off (until 1/31/10), and DAZ3D has a 30-day money back guarantee. If it will not do what you need, you can return it.

http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/0/blacksmith3d-morph-v3?item=10114&cat=&_m=d

Blacksmith3D-Paint v3.3 is also still on sale, has some UV abilities, and can export CR2/OBJ files directly to 3D Studio Max.

http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/0/blacksmith3d-paint-v3?item=9966&cat=&_m=d

lmk

The ZBrush layer trick to transform corrections is very close to what I was looking for!

Regarding Blacksmith 3D, I'm having enough of a challenge learning Maya and ZBrush. I can't help but cringe at the thought of dealing with another learning curve LOL. It looks like a fairly capable program for doing morphs though (and thanks for the suggestion!)

hi, i made such a script. you can morph a posed/morphed/scaled/however-deformed figure.
if still interested, drop me a mail. mail [at] colorcurvature.com