Also just OTT for a second sort of, there is something that I also wanted to know how it is achieved, and it is to do with texturing, probably beyond my skill again but i am so eager to learn. There is a way to make characters eyes and  lips look really awesome imho, like this character i saw Im not sure if I can link to it or not but its on here its called Tess by Phoenix - thats the one with gorgeous eyes, and Kymber by Countess or Daz Countess I think, not the example I was looking for but similar concept in that the lips have this subtle gloss to them. I can get a glossy look but its always too high, is is just a matter of messing with the dials and lowering the glow so to speak or am I missing something?? - the look I am thinking of is on a character called Vanessa for V4  its over at Daz its by maelwenn. How on earth do you get that gorgeous subtle shine?