Thanks to you guys for all your input and helpful comments on the texture. the member who is trying to achieve a respectable looking render is my 10 year old daughter who is facinated in CGI, poser in particular. She has scoured old photos of her Mum and myself to achieve the lips and eyes, the lashes come in the form of a scanned in cheap pair of false eye lashes from clairs accessaries,(live UK you will know the place) and from the messages she has sent to cake 1, iron bear, syyd,Destiny,Tammy, to name a few she made her own trans map. she probably will hate me for posting this as it gives out her age and she is afraid that she will be treated as "just another kid". Hey i read recently that most of the artists here are like myself on the good side of 40 hey life bigins at 40 does`nt it. she will im sure be sending in many postings in the future which i hope will be better and better, But hey is she the youngest member? Watch this space a proud Dad may be posting how renderosity encouraged a young lady to rise to be art director of final fantasy 3? and beyond thanks guys for your input cliss