OOOOOOoooh astonished where do I get this cr2editor? please make it free, please god

I will try doing that in ZBrush (I really just mold stuff there, never really dealed eith material zones and others). I will also do it with the sleeves zeroed in position, but morphed with that widecuffs morph, and I liked the idea of using this cr2 editor to create a new character with the hybrid sleeves... maybe you could mail me some specific info about this process via site mail, Cobaltdream.

sorry about the typos; typing at very low-light environment...

ps: any way to keep the previous morphs in the sleeves AFTER the conversion? curiosity kills

oh!  yes, Cr2 Editor is free.  it's actually kind of an old prorgam, and i think there are more robust but commercial applications that do the same thing.  and i'm pretty sure that you need a version before the last one because the version after it messes up the cr2 files it saves.  i think you want version 1.5 vs. 1.6. 

probably the best place to get it is English Bob's listing of utilities.  http://www.morphography.uk.vu/dlutility.html

i really don't know enough about the process  Zbrush needs or precisely what you want to do to give you much more specific information.  i know in Blender how to select faces and give them a new material zone, but i have no clue how to do it in Zbrush.  and i never got good at creating hybrids, because i never could get the Poser grouping tool to work across groups. 

which previous morphs?  yours or the MFD's?  so if it's the original MFD morphs, that's the point of just changing the obj file the cr2 is pointing at (and saving as a new .cr2 - never overwrite your original file).  it has all the same properties as the old figure but with an altered source.  so as long as you know how to make morph targets in Zbrush, it shouldn't be a problem.  basically, you keep the vertex count and order straight, and you're good to go.  if it's your own morphs you make in Zbrush, then the point of this excercise is that you can make any change in Zbrush you want to the obj that doesn't affect vertex count or order, export the new object, and use it as the source for your new cr2.  morph it, add material zones, even remap it as you please.

when i first started following this thread i was really into the idea of hybrids.  now i don't have much use for conforming clothes at all.  maybe i'll have learned so much about dynamic clothes in a year or three that i'll have hit their limitations, but right now there's just no benefit to conforming clothes for me.  i've barely begun to understand how dynamic clothes really work.  i mean, there's definitely features i wish i could request for Poser 9.  but there's just so much i haven't really tried, and so much that's generally seen as a difficulty when in actuality it's simply a limit of cloth.    so i can't really advise you on working with hybrids because i can use them well enough but have only theoretical knowledge about making them.

Yes the cr2 editor is free.  You can find it at this link (and others).    www.morphography.uk.vu/dlutility.html

Oops cross post. :blushing:

news from the wip: well, I just gave up trying to make a hybrid with mfd and decided go all way around with dyn clothing. Exported the obj with the sleeves morphs and the skirt morph and re-imported as a obj, parented and saved it in the props library. After that I went to the lovely cloth room and did what I have to do...

here is the result (sorry for the wide blank space and the already textured and haired model, I only render after most of the things are set up)

I wanted the sleeves more heavy, with a heavier feel... don't know how to accomplish that... any ideas?

sure.  make a new dynamic group for the sleeves, give them a higher density.  but that would be kind of weird, considering the fabric is transparent.  you might want to give them longer to drape.  since the only time they'd be floating around her arms like that is if she's underwater or in outer space,  the transition to her pose probably shouldn't begin until they're fully draped.

hmm okay, I never really used the drapes in my dynamic clothes, so I don't quite understant it's use... so, before I set up her pose transition I should drape her sleeves? how many drapes and how many frames you think would be good?

hmmm.  i have to think about how to explain this in a way that isn't as cyclically defined as the awful manual.  draping is there to let clothes respond to gravity that don't load that way initially.   there's lots of reasons to model something this way, like wanting the model to drape nicely over things other than your main figure or the ground.  it's easy to build realistic draping against your figure and the ground into the model, but you couldn't really anticipate anything else in a scene. 

in this case, my guess is that you're starting with a T-pose and the dress kind of floating around the figure.  if i'm right, both the skirt and the sleeves aren't starting from strictly a realistic position.  well, that means any sim you do from that position won't be realistic.  so using some frames to drape the dress properly on the figure and in the scene will make the sim more realistic.

how many totally depends on the cloth settings you used, how the dress fits initially, and the results you want.  i couldn't even begin to guess just by seeing your render.  i'd say start at 20 frames, and adjust by 10 frames from that result.  unless that first test totally isn't enough, and then i'd say try another 20 frames from that.  if 40 frames of draping doesn't get you anywhere close to what you want, i'd say look at your cloth density and air resistance. 

let me check if I got right:

• first 20 frames - model in T pose (or zero pose, I suppose) with, I don't know, maybe 2 or 3 drapes?
• last 10 frames with the transition to zero pose to final pose

right? gonna try

ps: I invented another zero pose (and saved the obj with that pose too). both arms are down, instead in that T form... gonna trywith this pose...

actually, the REAL problem between me and drapes is that my computer freezes with them... just that...

anyone can help? my computer freezes very hard with drape frames...

Try this as a test. Start in T pose, no pre-drape frames. On frame 15 is you final pose position and then let it drape or catch up to the characters movement in frames 15 to 30.

Everybody has different ways to get to the end result. When I decide to use pre-drapping it is normally around 5 frames and no more then 10. After the final pose (in the example above at frame 15) I typically have 15 frames more to let the cloth drape or catch up unless I want the character to look like they are in motion, like running or walking. That said I have gone as high as 60 and made the final pose at 40, especially when there is furniture involved that the cloth collides against.

What you will quickly learn about the cloth room is there are no firm rules. There are guidelines. But there is also a lot of trial and error. But loose clothes in the cloth room in my mind looks tons better compared to conforming.

Anyone already looked at this tutorial? it's gigantic but it's amazingly instructive!
www.renderosity.com/mod/tutorial/index.php

I reccomend! Helped me a lot

you just set the drape frames in the Simulation Settings.  there's no need to change the animation unless you actually want the reaction to movement to change.  otherwise you just add or subtract frames from the drape and add or subtract frames from the sim itself.

i personally disagree with grichter's no initial drape advice in this instance  because your sleeves are floating a lot.  not only will that mess up your final appearance, it means that the sleeves aren't even in a realistic position as the figure moves, so the final position can't be right.  it can settle, but not from the right position.  also, when English Bob had this same problem on some clothes he actually made himself, he had to make a new dynamic group on the sleeves after trying to drape over 100 frames.  that said, even 100 frames isn't a very long time. Poser's default frame rate is 30 frames per second, which makes 100 frames just 3.3 seconds.

i mention why i disagree in this particular case because he's totally right about guidelines.  using the cloth room is just like rigging and morphing conforming clothes in that it's all about understanding your specific situation.  you can't just look at a tutorial that tells how and get how to make dynamic clothes well.  you really need a lot of why and what if and different settings.  i've never seen a tutorial for the cloth room like that. all the tutorial's i've seen are great for using existing dynamic clothes, which is very helpful but i never really needed that.  iirc, after reading a Serge Marck tutorial, it was all very straight forward and i never knew what people had problems with until the past few days of answering questions.   for instance, it never would have occurred to me that you would try to manually insert draping frames rather than just using the Simulation Settings.  but then, when i'm learning something, i tend to poke at everything until it breaks (which usually doesn't take long).

i haven't seen that tutorial before, but i've seen lots of others that cover the exact same material.  though i think its unique advice on draping is what the "Flow with the Pose" tutorial at RDNA is about.  basically, if you just want a still pose, i think (though i haven't tried this in ages) you can just set your pose in the first frame and when you do your sim toggle it to "From Zero Pose."  i'd have to look up how that works and the limitations again.  anyway,  it's the implications of cloth dynamics that people - including myself- don't get, and i've never seen a tutorial go over that.

The reason I wanted the drape frames off was because their computer was locking up and it appeared they did not have any at rest frames after the character was in the actual pose. Plus 20 drape frames seemed a little high to me. If they were locking up lets get it unlocked and then sneak up on what was causing it to lock up. Wasn't disagreeing on the need for drape frames. Just trying to see if the number of drape frames might have an issue if their was intersecting cloth, which can bring the cloth room to it's knees. Trying to get a person that is new to the cloth room to change to wire frame and inspect the cloth object for intersecting cloth could scare them off from finding out just how great the cloth room is.

still testing all you guys said, posted the tutorial because I tought it was very nice and enlightening... I finally understood why to drape a cloth before the simulation, and my pc stoped freezing when I did the things in the proper manner! yaysies!

I'm no advanced user or modeler, just feeding my curiosity

Quote - The reason I wanted the drape frames off was because their computer was locking up and it appeared they did not have any at rest frames after the character was in the actual pose. Plus 20 drape frames seemed a little high to me. If they were locking up lets get it unlocked and then sneak up on what was causing it to lock up. Wasn't disagreeing on the need for drape frames. Just trying to see if the number of drape frames might have an issue if their was intersecting cloth, which can bring the cloth room to it's knees. Trying to get a person that is new to the cloth room to change to wire frame and inspect the cloth object for intersecting cloth could scare them off from finding out just how great the cloth room is.

oh, i can understand that, and i'm not trying to say to ignore your advice.  just because i wouldn't handle it that way doesn't mean i'm right and you're wrong.  i'm more saying: i wouldn't make that same decision and this is why.  mainly because i think making those decisions are the difficult part of making cloth.

just to give further info behind my reasoning (as you did): catsy_lu didn't mention just drape frames in the Simulation Settings (i'm assuming that's where the 2 or 3 drapes came in?), but as part of the animation.  so draping didn't sound like the problem, and it sounded like it was being done oddly.  also, i don't remember ever having draping cause a freeze but the simulation have no problem (though maybe my memory is faulty). 

in my experience with cloth sims, both in Poser and in Blender, 20 frames is actually pretty small for full settling.   i'm basing that at least in part having fairly recently made a dress with hanging sleeves.  and i think it's really important to talk about it any any case, because i find it useful to think in seconds more than just  frames.  2/3 of a second isn't a very long time (generally speaking), and you were suggesting a time of less than a quarter of a second (just translating 7 frames).  something with a high density might fall really fast, but without knowing the settings ...  i figured if 20 was too much, catsy_lu could dial back 10, as i suggested.

but then, i've also never had to go into wireframe to check intersecting cloth like that.  i guess i just stay away from clothifying items that complex. i've also made the MFD dynamic before, but i can't remember much about working with it since it was so long ago.   i know it didn't have a problem converting, though,  so i was pretty sure that wasn't the case either. 

basically, unless i'm reading it wrong, your reaction (which was sound) was to simplify by removing variables from the process.  my reaction was to simplify by addressing what seemed to be misunderstandings of the process in general and providing information that's been working for me.

Yes the last part was my aim. Make it simple and then add to what works on their system until they figure out what was causing the lock up.

And regarding drape frames there is a product in the store that uses transmaps to convert the MFD to a long top designed to be worn over pants call singles. Yet with the hip morphs you can't get it to look right. In the 1st frame with V4 in JeanZ and the MFD looking like a long sweater you can pose and just drape with selecting the the hip as the choregraphed group and unless the character is say sitting, you don't need to do an actual cloth sim, just about 10 or so drape frames and that is it. Not something you would find in the product or a tut :)

Plus the cloth room presets a freebee from Phil C found here

http://www.philc.net/freestuff_archive.php

work really well. Plus if you find a set of settings you like for a type of cloth, just copy one of the scripts and edit to your desired settings.

 Okay, finally got a cloth simulation that is doing basically what I want it to do.  The only problem is the bunching around the abdomen area.    I have hips, thighs, legs and feet as the collision areas on V4.   I'm wondering if it isn't because the clothify area is just the hips down? 

if you've just clothfied the skirt and not the top, that's the reason.  the flexible cloth of the skirt is meeting the inflexible and unmoving top.  joining conforming and dynamic is like attaching cloth to armor.  it's fine as long as the situation creates a natural flow, but it becomes problematic as soon as you find a position where the whole piece would move in a way differently than originally modeled.

 I tried clothifying the abdomen and chest of the dress, and the result was worse.  Maybe if I made it all part of a dymanic group?

hmmm.

first of all i don't understand what you mean if you say you've clothified them and they aren't part of a dynamic group.  i probably should have been more specific.  it's not just that a part conforms, it's also that as another group it's like a whole other piece.   i haven't so far had a problem with multiple dynamic groups.  that said, i only have one piece with a figure sitting in a dynamic dress (i don't do sitting poses much).  that's my image "The Nightcap."  looking at it, i got a fold at the waist, which i'd expect, but not like yours.  it was a while ago, and not my own dynamic dress, so i'm sure i'd use different settings today. 

it's really hard for me to say what to do without doing testing myself, and right now i'm doing a few different things and not likely to have time to play with the MFD in the near future.  that said, my general advice would be to work the two cases separately: hybrid and full dynamic.  simplify as much as possible, as grichter would advise.  so do the hybrid as close to instructions here as possible (i'm guessing you already have), and then do a completely separate sim with a MFD that's just a single dynamic group.  and try different dynamic settings.  you can do a separate test a lot of different ways (from two different PZ3 files to a single file with two dresses that you can toggle for visibility).  but the main advice i'd have is to isolate what youre varying. don't make lots of different hybrids or lots of groups that all clothify separately.  first make sure you've got cloth settings that work for that position and the fabric you want to simulate.

 Oh, sorry, didn't mean to confuse.  Those parts are dynamic, I just meant make the whole thing that way, but then I think I'd lose the conforming fit of the top and I like that.  I may just go with the first result and postwork the fold out.    It would not be hard to do.  

Trying a couple of other ideas, but like you I have other projects buzzing around in my head, so the cloth room may be a gradual learning experience for me.  Thank you for the help.  :)

Can we get a side view image. and maybe back a little. Is the right leg crossed over the left? If so it looks like the knee of the right leg is higher then the thigh-hip joint. IE it's down hill from the knee to the thigh-hip joint. Unlike when a lady sits down in a long dress and smooths it out under her, the cloth could be being pulled back towards the tight hip area which is causing the bunching because it is lower then the knee

Not at home where I have my setting notes...but a couple of things I would try if you can't get the cloth settings right.. If possible rotate the character and chair in X forward. Then when the sim is finished rotate back. Goal is to make the cloth run downhill and pull the bunching out. Or if the leg is crossed. Run a number of frames with the legs uncrossed to get the flow like you want and down to the shoes-floor and then near the end of the number of frames you have created cross the legs. Shortens the downhill back flow into the characters lap. Use the grouping tool and assign a new group above the knee an make the cloth stiffer (again not near poser) and leave the cloth below the knees as is or raise it's density to have more of a gravity effect and pull the cloth down which would lessen the bunching.

 One knee is higher than the other, but not crossed, the legs are slanted to the character's right side and the ankles cross.     

So you think I should have a few transitory poses?  Set them a few frames apart?  Just clarifying.

 When you say rotate in x forward, do you mean character tilted head first?  or feet first?  like lying on her back a bit?

just to say a couple of things:

in my experience, clothes that fit tightly much don't change when you make them dynamic.  for instance, the dynamic Starlight gown at RDNA fits over the chest like that (i really don't like that, actually), and no amount of letting it drape gave me any different results.  i'm working with a dynamic catsuit right now.  there's also all sorts of things you can do with dynamic settings. 

i'm still not sure from what you're saying if the dynamic part is singular or multiple.  if you just clothifiy each portion of a conforming outfit, you get bad results at the joins.  you probably know better than that, but i did that once upon a time, so i figured i'd just confirm.

what grichter is saying, if i'm not mistaken, is that if you make a figure sit in the regular fashion, you have someone who sits down without adjusting their clothing.  women generally smooth their skirt when they sit to deal with bunching at the waist.  choreographed groups can duplicate tugging at stuff, but that seems like a lot of trouble.  the easiest way to simulate the effect is to let gravity do the work. so if you get her into sitting position tilted forward, that's like tugging it forward.  then you can tilt her back into final position.

Quote - just to say a couple of things:

in my experience, clothes that fit tightly much don't change when you make them dynamic.  for instance, the dynamic Starlight gown at RDNA fits over the chest like that (i really don't like that, actually), and no amount of letting it drape gave me any different results.  i'm working with a dynamic catsuit right now.  there's also all sorts of things you can do with dynamic settings. 

i'm still not sure from what you're saying if the dynamic part is singular or multiple.  if you just clothifiy each portion of a conforming outfit, you get bad results at the joins.  you probably know better than that, but i did that once upon a time, so i figured i'd just confirm.

what grichter is saying, if i'm not mistaken, is that if you make a figure sit in the regular fashion, you have someone who sits down without adjusting their clothing.  women generally smooth their skirt when they sit to deal with bunching at the waist.  choreographed groups can duplicate tugging at stuff, but that seems like a lot of trouble.  the easiest way to simulate the effect is to let gravity do the work. so if you get her into sitting position tilted forward, that's like tugging it forward.  then you can tilt her back into final position.

Ahh, no I didn't know better than that.   I think I may end up playing with this for awhile.  I have to work tomorrow, so may not be until the next day until I can do more.   I'll try this again, and probably will end up making a new pose to use, since this one is tilted back somewhat.  

What you say makes sense.  I'll give it a try.  This is a picture I've wanted to do for awhile and the first scene got corrupted, which gives me a chance to try to do the dress right this time.

Thank you guys.  I'll update this soon.

DA

Just keep in mind unlike real life, the cloth room only knows gravity there are no hands that can reach into the scene and push and pull the cloth and smooth it out. Granted there are wind forces you can add.

Don't be afraid to move your character or rotate it to get the cloth to look like you want

Don't be afraid to add primitives to the scene and collide against them. For example a lady navigating a set of stairs in a long loose around the feet dress, would reach down and grab part of the skirt and lift it up. Something you probably could never get right with conforming cloth. You can use a primitive prop to push-hold the dress up to the characters hand. Use your imagination. I use primitives frequently to push cloth around to how I want it. Then just make them invisible for rendering.

grichter: have you done anything with choreographed groups and handles?  i was reading a tutorial on how to wrap a sheet around a figure using a few choreographed vertices, and it makes me think that it might be possible to tug on pieces of cloth with primitives that are parents to the choreographed vertices.

No never tried that. Have to run out for a bit. But later today hopefully will finish up the project I am doing and then plan to spend a ton of time in the cloth room as Cloth Room Assisitant found at CP was updated to supposedly work on my mac.

The prev that I am, I have a conforming bathrobe I converted from M3 to M4 as a prop so I can run it thru the cloth room and  do a Playboy Bunny scene! :biggrin:

Quote - grichter: have you done anything with choreographed groups and handles?  i was reading a tutorial on how to wrap a sheet around a figure using a few choreographed vertices, and it makes me think that it might be possible to tug on pieces of cloth with primitives that are parents to the choreographed vertices.

Yes it is possible to use Props to move and tug pieces of cloth.
I have used a torus prop to do some neat things.

Clothifying MFD!  can this work for P5 Judy?

do you mean can you make the MFD work on Judy?  if you can get it to fit her with no poke through, yes.

Quote - Clothifying MFD!  can this work for P5 Judy?

Main benefit of mfd is that it’s a versatile long dress with lots of morphs so you easy make a tight fitting conforming long dress and then clothify the skirt to make it look natural.

Yes you could probably use poses and resizing to get it to fit, then save it as a prop and use it as a full dynamic dress for other figures, however it’s other dresses who should be easier to work with, so you would do it for the textures.