Used Vue rocks again with the vector technique explained somewhere above.

The displacement function in short consist of some custom cracks and a Cellular Crystal Noise (wavelenght 0/0/1 in order to get some horizontal layers).
A Grainy Fractal is transformed into a vector, which is displacing  the cracks. The "layers". are affected by this vector as well. But here I blended it with another vector coming from a second Cellular Crystal Noise ( wavelength 1/1/1).

The rock looks a bit special, or at least it`s not a rock we see every day, BUT I am amazed at the sheer amount of detail. Rendered it quite big to make sure I did not miss any rendering errors.

Click on the pic to see a bigger version.

The detail is pretty awesome and this thread has lead to several different avenues of doing a thing. But I must say Vue 8 recent build is giving me fits. If I can keep it running, I'll have another pic to share as well.....

Excellent eonite.

M

Most of my session time I experimented with displacement functions. While the Crystal Noise is a nice ingredient for a sharper look, I also started to use the Distributed Pattern node.

The picture Ive posted is using exactly this node, along with Grainy Fractal and some cracks Ive used before. I keep being amazed by the amount of detail one gets with displacement mapping. The color part of the mat is simple . I don`t really see any need to make it very complex.

Was playing with some vegetation as well, mainly to find out how well Vue is "aware" of the displaced surface.

Seems we`re getting somewhere...

I think we are certainly getting somewhere

I had to go back to 7.4 to get anything accomplished. Too many crashes. This is a color experiment in pursuit of the natural look. A dark/light color map according to the crystal displacement and a dark/light for the cracks and an image map through a color combiner.

This is fun stuff.....

WOW eonite, that is just sick !!!

You guys sure have taught me a LOT about the Vue rocks, which aside from crappy looking close up trees is one MAJOR and always overlooked parts of Vue.

Learning is awesome !!!

Monsoon and and R.P. Studios: Glad you like this one.
Maybe I exaggerated a bit with detail.
However I like the fact that there are lots of variations in the patterns and also that it`s hard to see that there were 3 separate Vue rock objects involved. To achieve that I switched the mat to World Standard because this allows to move, resize and rotate the objects while the mat is just continually applied on the geometry (as if it was one object) .
Using  World Standard has a downside. If you move the object (group) the look will change, so this would be no issue as long as you have positioned, sized the object before working on the final look of the rock.
Of course one could work on the group of rock objects first and then bake it, so it becomes one object, and then apply the mat (in Object Parametric mode)

Btw. I went through an AsileFX training lesson named "Painting Rocks". This lesson suggests to use an ecosystem and paint dozens of rocks, turn them into objects, group them and then bake them in order to get one complex looking rock.
This is certainly another possible approach.

Quote -
I had to go back to 7.4 to get anything accomplished. Too many crashes. This is a color experiment in pursuit of the natural look. A dark/light color map according to the crystal displacement and a dark/light for the cracks and an image map through a color combiner.

Strange, Vue 8 is quite stable on my system. I remember that I had some trouble with crashes when I started using Vue 8. But then I got the advice from someone on this forum to try with "Fixed Hardware Pipeline", found in the Display Options menu. This has solved the crash problem for me.

Interesting color experiment. Looks quite natural indeed.
Re: dark/light color map. Did you directly apply the crystal/cracks function to the color map?
If so, this is what I am doing a lot, not only with dark/light, but also with colors, sometimes by adding a filter in between.
Personally, I avoid using image maps, and try to get a similar result by using functions instead, simply because often times when I am using image maps to color terrains or rocks I have trouble with insuffient resolution, seams or it`s getting somewhat obvious that the image is repeated.
Also, when using image maps, I am missing the option to have bumps and colors really matched, and of course to have infinite level of detail (as with procedural functions).

Quote - You guys sure have taught me a LOT about the Vue rocks, which aside from crappy looking close up trees is one MAJOR and always overlooked parts of Vue.

Learning is awesome !!!

I agree with you, a lot of improvement is possible...and required to get a more natural look.

Re: learning. I second that :-)
In my case I constantly try to expand my knowledge and skills, and I am really glad about all the stuff that is available from G@P, Quadspinner and AsileFX, to name a few...and of course the forums.
The training videos of G@P for instance greatly helped me to get familiar with Vue, also I went through the terrain tutorials that were added recently, and although I had some knowledge before, I learned a lot of new stuff.
Recently I got myself some training videos from Asile FX and Quadspinner to learn some more about terrains. It was all just awesome.
Especially AsileFX was enlightening to me because I did not only learn some new techniques and tricks on terrains, but also learned quite a lot of things about functions.

Although the training materials from AsileFX (and Quadspinner) are not exactly low priced, they are worth every penny. Nick Pellegrino is digging really deep and comes with professional solutions which are well founded ...and which will really work. Also, while he is talking freely about Vue bugs, he is offering workarounds.

Anyway, this forum is a great place to exchange techniques, expand our knowledge ...and to always get the latest news 

The crystal and crack fuctions were applied directly to the color map. Since I'm using a negative displacement, I had to place an 'opposite' filter between the color map and the cracks. If I use just an image map on a displacement, there's noticable stretching on certain facets of the displacement, but I like adding one to the other procedural functions. It drives a subtle color variation.

In the image above, eonite topped his rock off with a sprinkle of tree to great effect...

In this experiment, I'm combining the displaced rock with a scree like material........

Mixing a displaced material has it's own dynamics worth exploring......

If you need beta testers... hint hint... hehehe :laugh:

Mazak

Quote - .
The crystal and crack fuctions were applied directly to the color map. Since I'm using a negative displacement, I had to place an 'opposite' filter between the color map and the cracks. If I use just an image map on a displacement, there's noticable stretching on certain facets of the displacement, but I like adding one to the other procedural functions. It drives a subtle color variation.

In the image above, eonite topped his rock off with a sprinkle of tree to great effect...

In this experiment, I'm combining the displaced rock with a scree like material........

Mixing a displaced material has it's own dynamics worth exploring......

That looks cool!
I especially like the rock in the background with a kind of layering.Really nice.
Indeed getting some subtle color changes can be beneficial.

Question: What`s the benefit of using a negative value for displacement (besides that the vaklues are inverted)
2nd question: The small rocks in the foreground which jump out, are these generated by the function or is this a separate ecosystem?

Quote - If you need beta testers... hint hint... hehehe :laugh:
Mazak

Well, I suppose your question goes to Monsoon, since he was mentioning a possible future rock product.

Currently I have no intention to create a rock product myself. I just happen to be inspired, thrilled and challenged by this discussion. My next product will rather be another cloud collection.

But who knows... should I change my mind then I would surely appreciate to have you in the boat :-)

 For certain functions such as the crystals or certain of the voronoi like angles, a negative displacement will sometimes look different than a positive one....sometimes better, sometimes not. It's just a preference. If I have a function that just looks puffy under displacement, a negative turn may look better. I've been using that and negative bump since V4 and 5. Again, just for what looks better.

The foreground terrain mat has an ecosystem on the top portion. The skree material mixed on the rock itself is just the 'pebble noise/sick rock' portion of the terrain mat, mixed according to the functions just like the dark/light color.

What I really like is the ecosystem featuring some of Wabe`s amazing moss plants.

Btw. The file without the ecosystem uses only a bit more than 3000 polygons. However with the moss applied it sums up to almost 6billion polys.

P.S. We just cross posted. Thanks for the quick answer.

 Love that crack pattern and love wabe's moss as well.....and now I think I gotta get me some eonite cloud too.

Well, the cloud layer I used here is not part of the currently available cloud collection. It will be in the next set. But thanks for your interest anyway :-)

I will post the scene file a bit later (without the moss, but with the clouds)

Ok, here is the download link

Please note that this is a Vue 8.4 Infinite file, so probably will work with other Vue 8 versions too, but not with pre-8 versions. Sorry.

Same object, same angle, same mat, same functions. Negative displacement is on the left. Positive of the same value is on the right. Notice the differences.  I've been working on big jagged rocks and cliff faces so for my purposes, the one on the left is better suited. For a rock on a seashore or one jutting up out of a forest floor, the one on the right might be preferable.

Enough differences in appearance to warrant using both I think.

Thanks for the link!

My pleasure :-)

I see. The one to the right looks more rounded, eroded.

But still, I am wondering if there is another difference besides just inverting the function (which could also be achieved by using an opposite filter).

I guess you could leave it postive bump/displacement and just invert the nodes. I just do it the other way around. Take the bump down negative and then just invert nodes that I need to. I imagine you could do both and have a positive/negative displacement mix. Hmmm........

Yeah, that`s what I assume. It seems we get the same effect. I have to try...

Btw. I played with the file I posted a bit more. The spikes I mentioned will disappear when you move the position of the rocks and also when you offset the function.

FYI the mat is scaled to 8. Now, in case you want to add an ecosystem, the scaling will jump back to 1. It`s sufficient to put it back to 8 and it will stay there afterwards.

At last, folks that talk rocks!  I have spent the better part of my summers for years photographing and gnawing on how to get those cliff faces and boulders into my art.  My family gave up asking me for a photo show years ago.... "rocks, rocks, squirrel.... oh! another rock!" Heh.

Both of you have gotten mighty close.  Thank you for sharing the process here. 

Just ordered Vue 8 Complete, after using Vue 4 for the interim years.  Can't wait to crack it open and take a look at all the additional tools.

Teque

 Well that was fun for a weekend. Now it's back to the 9-5. 

I looked more closely at the positive/negative thing and indeed, it's simply two different roads to the same destination. It's just a matter of choice. However, I discovered that, which ever one you choose, placing an opposite filter on one or any of the fractal nodes used in the mat makes for interesting mixes of positive and negative displacement.

Some desert type boulders...two Vue rocks with a positive displacement of vertical and horizontal stretched crystal functions mixed with 'granite' fractals and perturbed by eonite's constant vector cracks as described earlier in the thread. I used voronoi 'angles' instead of 'spikes'. You have to play with the filter a bit. The colors are dark to light color maps driven by the functions and mixed with an image map of rock texture through a color combiner.

I then placed an 'opposite' filter on just the horizontal crystal function giving it a negative displacement. It immediately made for some more interesting movement in the rock's structure.....

Hey tsquare....glad you like what's going on here.  I'm sure there's more to come!

Quote - At last, folks that talk rocks!  I have spent the better part of my summers for years photographing and gnawing on how to get those cliff faces and boulders into my art.  My family gave up asking me for a photo show years ago.... "rocks, rocks, squirrel.... oh! another rock!" Heh.

Both of you have gotten mighty close.  Thank you for sharing the process here. 

Just ordered Vue 8 Complete, after using Vue 4 for the interim years.  Can't wait to crack it open and take a look at all the additional tools.

Teque

Glad you like our rocks, Teque. I am convinced that we can go even further by experimenting with functions.
Good to hear you have Vue 8 now. The displacement  does not only look better but you have more options now.
I can well understand your interest in rocks. Last year, I was in the mountains a couple of times
(I`m from Switzerland, so we have plenty of them). I remember that each time when coming back home, I started  Vue and tried to capture the look and feel of the rocks that I had just seen.
No need to mention that it was frustrating at times to just not be able to get realistic results.

But in the meantime I am confident that it`s just a question of time till we see rocks that are really hard to distinguish from real rocks.

Quote -
Some desert type boulders...two Vue rocks with a positive displacement of vertical and horizontal stretched crystal functions mixed with 'granite' fractals and perturbed by eonite's constant vector cracks as described earlier in the thread. I used voronoi 'angles' instead of 'spikes'. You have to play with the filter a bit. The colors are dark to light color maps driven by the functions and mixed with an image map of rock texture through a color combiner.

I then placed an 'opposite' filter on just the horizontal crystal function giving it a negative displacement. It immediately made for some more interesting movement in the rock's structure.....

Looks great!  I`m curious to see such rocks in a desert scene.

Inverting the function makes a great difference in look, but only if the "valleys" of the function are different from the "hills". A Simple Fractal Node with Perlin Gradient Noise for example won`t look really look different, however as soon as the ridged option is checked, it will look entirely different when inverted. (Not inverted it will have a ridged look, while inverted it will have a billowy look.)

This thread is absolutely awesome. Eonite, everytime that I think you can't surprise us anymore you pull another trick out of your hat. I really admire you for your faboulous cloud techniques and now I guess we have  a second area where you can showcase your talents with th efunction editor :- ). 

I bought Terragen 2 at the beginning of the year because I was so frustrated with Vue's instability and the non-working displacement on high resolution terrains in Vue 8. I have to say it's really amazing what you can do with Terragen's displacement engine and I'd love to see Vue's function editor get used in a similar way.

So my question is: has anyone managed yet to displace a very high resolution terrain (4096x4096) properly without crashing? I can't displace anything beyond 512x512, not even 1024x1024 (haven't tried the most recent update, though). Displacing rocks or primitives is not an issue, this works quite well. But I want to displace terrains in order to create real overhangs and rock structures. The new terrain editor is not suitable for micro detail, just for some general shapes.

I do hope so much that someone will come up with a solution of displacing standard terrains as easily as primitives. After all Vue is meant to be a "natural 3D solution", so the development focus should be put on displacing natural 3D environments like terrains and not some low-poly primitive objects.

Quote - Here you go eonite. One rock duplicated 7 times and 2 terrains. The same material is applied to everything. Displacement is off for the terrains. There are some trouble spots but other than that, we get closer to the natural look.....

Ha, that looks impressive! Along with a terrain, especially with a smoother surface your rock scape looks georgeous...and natural. Cool!

Know what? Yesterday I started to esperiment with metablobs. As far as I know, Dax Pandhi uses Metablobs to create his Hyperterrains.
In my case I did not bake them. I just applied some displacement mat. Was using cubes, rotated and also varied then in size, or "squeezed" some. I then applied the displacement function (in world standard mode) directly on the Metablob. The results were quite promising.
Will probably post something later.

Hi Daniel,

Thanks!

I`m glad you like the thread. It triggered a couple of exciting rock related developments.

Yeah, Vue can be frustrating at times. I would lie if I said that I have always been happy with Vue.
No doubt, Terragen is a powerful landscape app.

What terrains are concerned, I encountered similar problems with standard terrains. Just tested today. Tried to apply a displacement map on a higher resolution terrain and Vue stopped reacting. I guess there is still a bug somewhere...

BUT my experience with procedural terrains are quite a bit different. I did get nice results already in Vue 7. And although it may take some time to render the results are rather convincing.
Today, triggered by your post, I experimented with prodecural terrains on which I applied displacement. I don`t want to say the it works perfectly with any function. But with the right combination of nodes and filters you can get convincing results.

Will post a render a bit later.

That's quite an impressive procedural terrain, eonite. However, what I am missing is the possibility of explicitly creating a procedural terrain with certain shapes (rivers, cliffs, whatever...) and then enhancing those shapes with a displacement material. It's not that it's not possible, it would simply make the rendertime explode.

Ironically I downloaded the most recent update today and tried displacing a 4096x4096 terrain from Geocontrol 2 and it worked with reasonable render times (10 minutes for 800x600 on "Final" on my Core i7 920), but the preparation time takes quite long. But it seems that e-on is finally on the right track on getting displacement to work properly on all objects. Vue even showed me the estimated preparation time and responded when I switched to another application. This is a big plus considering the last updates. :-)

I know what you mean. Of course we should be to be able to create any type of landscape.

In Vue we already have a powerful terrain editor now and displacement that works. It`s just a matter of time for the the E-ON developers to optimize all this (and for us to learn and get experienced with all those options).

Yes, E-ON is on the right track.
It`s great to see things improving :-)

Btw. do you have links to some really convincing Terragen images using displacement?

Yes, there are many examples.

There are several people who are Terragen masters and who are also extremly helpful in the official planetside forums. It's really worth not only checking out the images below but also their galleries:

Scene from Martin's gallery:

http://tangled-universe.deviantart.com/art/Strata-Rock-Wall-152572301

Scene from Frank's gallery:

http://nwda.deviantart.com/art/Rock-wall-22b-153286594

My personal favorite from Ryan's gallery:

http://www.archer-designs.com/zp/index.php?album=digital-art%2Fterragen-2&image=climbing-the-chimney-v3.jpg

Some more:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/7-canyon16.jpg.html
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/file_1367648.jpg.html

One of TG's best displacement functions is the so-called "Fake stone" shader. It can create absolutely convincing stones of all kinds that blend seamlessly into the surrounding. It looks more realistic than just painting some stone objects, because those stones are computed together with the terrain's surface and react accordingly to the underlying geometry and surface restrictions. Dave Burdick made a very good stone generator Metanode for Vue (I think it's included in Vue 8 by default now), but it's still nowhere near the Terragen shader. That's a feature that e-on should definitely look into :-)

 I have David's rock generator and it's great. And those are fabulous images...the clarity is astounding. But I dare say from viewing those that we are well on our way to getting there in Vue.
That little rock function in TG2 though...that's sweet.

I just wish Vue weren't so fragile and temperamental.....I'm thinking about getting the maintenance plan and swinging an upgrade.  Or a new computer.  But I can't work for long in 8 without it crashing. 

Love that displaced terrain!

Monsoon
build 49020 Vue 8 infinite seems fine for me :)
but as often said I have a custom, art apps only, built to spec, art rig.
64 bit WIn 7, 8 gig RAM, Asus motherboard, Nvidia 9600 GT vid card, 3 HDs. Ok price was painful, but soooo much better than old P4!
works very sweet, mate :)

oh and watch antiVirus, avoid Norton and some others, ugh.

Quote - Monsoon
build 49020 Vue 8 infinite seems fine for me :)
but as often said I have a custom, art apps only, built to spec, art rig.
64 bit WIn 7, 8 gig RAM, Asus motherboard, Nvidia 9600 GT vid card, 3 HDs. Ok price was painful, but soooo much better than old P4!
works very sweet, mate :)

oh and watch antiVirus, avoid Norton and some others, ugh.

The keyword being 64bit.

Poser doesn't work with 32bit in build 49020.

Quote - Yes, there are many examples.

There are several people who are Terragen masters and who are also extremly helpful in the official planetside forums. It's really worth not only checking out the images below but also their galleries:

Scene from Martin's gallery:

http://tangled-universe.deviantart.com/art/Strata-Rock-Wall-152572301

Scene from Frank's gallery:

http://nwda.deviantart.com/art/Rock-wall-22b-153286594

My personal favorite from Ryan's gallery:

http://www.archer-designs.com/zp/index.php?album=digital-art%2Fterragen-2&image=climbing-the-chimney-v3.jpg

Some more:

http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/7-canyon16.jpg.html
http://www.planetside.co.uk/gallery/f/tg2/file_1367648.jpg.html

One of TG's best displacement functions is the so-called "Fake stone" shader. It can create absolutely convincing stones of all kinds that blend seamlessly into the surrounding. It looks more realistic than just painting some stone objects, because those stones are computed together with the terrain's surface and react accordingly to the underlying geometry and surface restrictions. Dave Burdick made a very good stone generator Metanode for Vue (I think it's included in Vue 8 by default now), but it's still nowhere near the Terragen shader. That's a feature that e-on should definitely look into :-)

Thanks or the links, Daniel!

The images are indeed impressive and Terragens displacement options are really cool. I looked not only at the linked pictures but also had a look at the galleries. Ryans gallery is absolutely stunning!

With that said, we should not judge the 2 apps only by the pictures we see. Let`s not forget that Terragen has always been a landscape generator and it has attracted many really talented guys, who explored the app for years, trying to enhance realism on their landscape scenes.
So what we see is the result of many years of experience with Terragen.

Vue on the other hand is an app with a huge potential of which only a part has ever been explored. This thread is a good example. When you go through it you can see how exploring alternate options to create  rocks may lead to results which have not been achieved in Vue before. And probably we have only scratched the surface.

As Monsoon said, we are on our way...

 Well I made the jump to maintenance and 8.5. We'll see what happens after work today. I like some of the new features so I'm rather psyched.

Didn't have enough spare cash for a new machine yet.

I have noticed during this experiment thread that not all rocks or meshes look good with displacement. Sometimes, things look better with just some serious bump. It depends on whether it's foreground, midground, or distance, terrain or object, lighting or what have you. So regardless of cool capabilities, artistic discretion is still an important factor. I'm looking forward to seeing what 8.5 has to offer.

Quote - I have noticed during this experiment thread that not all rocks or meshes look good with displacement. Sometimes, things look better with just some serious bump. It depends on whether it's foreground, midground, or distance, terrain or object, lighting or what have you. So regardless of cool capabilities, artistic discretion is still an important factor. I'm looking forward to seeing what 8.5 has to offer.

Have noticed that also. What I experienced was for instance that a too complex underlying geometry resulted in more artifacts.
Also, when the displacement function is too simple (Just a simple noise, no fractal noise, seems to not work very well.
Have also noticed a difference, depending on the distance to the camera.
But on the other hand, with the right underlying geometry and a good displacement function the result can be really convincing.

Quote -  Well I made the jump to maintenance and 8.5. We'll see what happens after work today. I like some of the new features so I'm rather psyched.

Have you seen Abraham`s posts in the "Vue Clouds" thread?  He put some great infos on gamma settings in Vue 8.5.

Below is a comparison between a render with no gamma and a render with a gamma setting of 1.8.

The difference is huge.

Very, very interesting :) This would be great to recreate the a "Meteora monastery" like scene, I can perfectly imagine a little house or monument at the top of one of this rock (and even more imagine myself living in it :) )

Glad you like it, Abraham :-)

Funny I imagined a monastery as well when I looked at the render. What I find cool about such rocks is that the structure and detail are interesting enough, so the rock does not need to be totally covered with vegetation.

Here are six Vue rocks with a function driving the displacement and an image driving the color. In the displacement function there is also color but it is only gray light and dark according to the displacement fractals. The image map is applied as a layer with bump set to 0, alpha half way, and the bump slider set all the way to 'add' on the right. Image mapping is set to 'faces'.  Makes for some natural looking variety.  

 The tips shared and info gleaned in this thread have been invaluable. I've been having more fun in the Function Editor than I've had in a long time. So thanks to everyone who joined in. And an added bonus.....I've been working in 8.5 for hours and hours without a crash. What a treat!

Quote - Some jaggy craggy displacements with image overlays.......V7.4. 

Here are six Vue rocks with a function driving the displacement and an image driving the color. In the displacement function there is also color but it is only gray light and dark according to the displacement fractals. The image map is applied as a layer with bump set to 0, alpha half way, and the bump slider set all the way to 'add' on the right. Image mapping is set to 'faces'.  Makes for some natural looking variety.  

Very nice. Seems you have found a good solution for jagged rocks.

Quote -  The tips shared and info gleaned in this thread have been invaluable. I've been having more fun in the Function Editor than I've had in a long time. So thanks to everyone who joined in. And an added bonus.....I've been working in 8.5 for hours and hours without a crash. What a treat!

Yeah, the function editor can be a lot of fun...and extremly thrilling.

Agree, 8.5 is very stable, at least what editing in the FE is concerned. I`m also very happy with the new gamma options. With the versions before I always found that the areas in the shadow tended to be way too dark.

I also feel that this thread has gathered a lot of valuable infos and techniques regarding rocks.

Used a Metablob and mat is in World Standard mode (there is currently a bug with mats in Object Standard mode along with Metanodes. The more you increase the size of the Object the more you lose detail (harmonics)).