Hi all thank you for all your comments and support ! I think teyon's post can give some an idea of what were talking about it is not a forum geared towards the total novice, though the novice modeler can advance his/her skill and cut months off of learning time by browsing, robin there are tons of programs! i have about 7 my self but all have basic modeling similarities polygon spline nurb sub patch sub division. Mirai, LW, 3ds max, carrara, hash animation master, strata, maya, soft image, houdini all have similar modeling some of the tools to manipulate them differ rhino uses nurbs as alot of other modelers do as well but the end results are the same what we are looking at is more a review on modeling how to do the corect anatomy, positoning, proportion, development and texturing along with help and sugestions on how to improve or use techniques to do it to enhance the model.most programs now come with several different options to model in therself for examle LW uses splines sub divison polys etc i will post some pics below to show moore of what the forum would involve far moore than a tutorial moore of a class effort not being taught but learning from each other there is far moore to modeling than creating a relistic face!lol (if using a program name to explain a process is necesarry in a post on your wip it would be alowed as long as it was on topic thats the key post about how do i do this unrelated to the topic would not be alowed ! for example if one months topic was head modeling you could post a pic of you head model and say im having trouble doing eyes on this then someone could tell you what tools or how to fix it but a random post on how do i make muscles in the leg when the topic was head modeling woutld not be !)