Thanks all

I have learned a lot about this and have been reading some info re bagginsbill posts seems very tec though.

I think I can handle using a low grade noise node, as nruddock suggests thanks and saying that, I will not bother with a desaturated bump map.

thanks again. I think I can settle for my renders with no bump really, since I am not looking high realisim.

Rowlando

Seek what you can never loose