Sigh.

The war has begun for the minds, hearts, loyalty and most importanly DOLLARS of you folks (we folks!) who use either POSER or DazStudio. And it now in the open.

The battlelines have been drawn.

The market MAY split (if it has not already).

Some may accuse Smith-Micro of firing the first shot with those Poser Ambassador/Early Adopter badges/icons whatever.

The counter shot comes from Daz3D in its latest newsletter annoucing the disappearance of Steph4 for Genesis. In said newsletter you may select from a number of badges "...to flash all over the world wide web" proclaiming "I am DAZ" or "DAZAHOLIC".

Sigh.

Not sure if this needs an advisory or if you mods want to leave it up. Just a heads up though.

I don't think Daz or SM started it. It's just a symptom of the differences in the new programs. We're losing out on new Daz figures and Daz is losing out on at least half of it's buying customers. Cest la vie.

Laurie

I use both but I think the so called " War " is alot of people being free with their opinions and this causes the uprising in the rumors of a split. I for one will support both companies as long as they meet my needs and are customer oriented.

so infact, nothings changed then?

Well, I don't necessarily feel there's anything wrong with opinions ;). At the very least it should tell both companies where their customers feelings lie.

Laurie

Python..

posers under utilized  python is the key.

The answer is very simple...look at LaurieA's new avatar...we all no matter the software of choice unite tomorrow! :thumbupboth:

The word "fan" is short for fanatic. Lighten up folks.

lmk

I think the DAZ badges are more of a response to the success of the 'rendered with Reality' badges and not much to do with Poser.

troll

War?

Poser and D|S occupy a tiny niche market.  Outside of our respective forums, who really understands what we do, or even why?  Tell Mr or Mrs Average about Poser or D|S and watch their eyes glaze over.

Anyhow, they're both essentially graphic tools.  Use whichever is right for the job.

On the face of things DAZ seem to be a bit daft but that could be because we don't know the whole story. 

War, Huh!

What is it good for?

Absolutely nuthin'

Say it again!

(from the great, deep thinking philosipher Edwin Starr)

Quote - War?

Poser and D|S occupy a tiny niche market.  Outside of our respective forums,

On the face of things DAZ seem to be a bit daft but that could be because we don't know the whole story. 

You know Sam it could be as simple as this:
DAZ has determined, by their calculation that ,their
D/S program  and accompanying content is now
viable without any Direct  relation to the poser program
and is now a viable Commercial product for markets outside
the existing
poser/Daz communities.
this is their opinion perhaps and time will tell if this bears out.

My opinion:( Shocker wolf359 has an opinion!!)
is that there still is not any other Viable Market in existence for the DAZ studio/content paradigm

From Their genesis marketing Ad copy they seem to think
they can now Make serious in roads into "pro pipelines"
because  of the abilities of genesis

Honestly this is complete & utter nonsense!!
Pro pipelines Just Do not Work this way.

This silly. Delusional notion of, one Doughy, puffy  faced generic uber clone that will be all things  to everyone , is DOA in the:
Games Dev industry, Film Industry,VFX industry and this is where the "pro Pipelines" reside , and these pro shops are notoriously stubborn

Trust me no one in these fields has a need for Daz studio or genesis...no one.

They Always build assets from scratch to meet clients specific and ever changing demands
and when they do use pre-made assets that buy them from long established outlets
Dosch,turbosquid etc in the specific format of the pro app they use .MAx with 2K texture setup for vray. etc and charge them to the client

And all of these"amazing "abilities DAZ thinks are in genesis have existed in pro character rigs
for at least a decade.
Now I am  not saying that they should stick to the limited poser market, or create a poser version of genesis Blah Blah
And personallyI have no interest at all in that figure .

but I really dont see that users of MAYA,MAX ,Softimage, C4D ,Houdini are going to suddenly start using DAZ products in any significant way .

Cheers

Its worth mentioning that V5 is not out yet!

Judging solely from forum posts, a lot of Poser users (and quite a few DS users) don't realise that Genesis is NOT V5!

All SM have done is not include an importer.  When SM say, "[they] ...do not want to be dependent on third party technology".

I read this as, 'they don't want to be responsible for maintaining and updating their importer whenever DAZ change their format.'

But internally Poser seems to be have been made 99% compatible with the new rigging etc.

As things stand DAZ could probably make a standalone V5 weightmapped for Poser.

Leaving the fully 'Mix N Merge' V5 for DS users...

...till SM have their equivalent 'mix n merge' ready in Poser 10. :biggrin:

(I was going to copyright 'mix n merge' but apparently its the name of a utility to join .NET modules together by a small company called Microsoft.)

I don't think there will be a V5 in the same sense as earlier Vickies-it will just be another shape and weight map for the Genesis mesh.

There is no war; there is an election, and folks will vote with their wallets...

Why don't you think there will be a Poser weightmapped V5?

Quote - Why don't you think there will be a Poser weightmapped V5?

I didn't say there wouldn't be; It appears that any Genesis shape can be exported in a Poser compatible format.  V5 will just be another pretty shape...

Is there better name for the new Poser weightmapped format?

Poser (new format)?

Poser weightmapped?

Poser weighted?

Poser 9 weighted?

Poser 9w?

Wolf makes a good point, based on what I've read about the 3D industry. I'm sure that in their wildest nocturnal emmisions Daz might hope that they could break into that market. I give them more credit than to believe that they see it as a serious possibility though, at least for the forseeable future. If anything, with it's export options to higher end packages, I see that as more of a Poser ambition. Daz OTOH, I have always believed is seeking a market that hasn't really existed before. Their efforts in creating some kind of game character development option for example, are aimed not at the next HALO, but perhaps more at the exploding social media market and who knows what else. Who would thought that domething like Farmville would become so popular. THe iPhone/iPad phenom is changing the way people use/think about computers. I think that 3D will play a huge role in that. Maybe everyone will have an avatar that not only looks like them but is encoded with their physical and other characteristics. Using it, you'll easily be able to see if your ass looks big in those pants, or whether the new Toyota will be roomy enough for you. We're going to be a long way from the temple - or maybe not.

I actually agree with wolf359's post above (incredible, ain't it? LOL). And I think the same could be said of Poser as well. Neither is something that is particlarly coveted by the professional 3D graphics community. Not that there's anything wrong with that...lol.

Laurie

If you consider the number of people who are on Poser versions earlier than 8 (hand up if thats you) then for that portion of the market this whole discussion is pointless. I have P7 and no money to upgrade Poser much less a new processor.  I run a single amd athlon at 2ghz with 512 mb of memory from about 2005.

If I need to do better than Poser I port the figure into lightwave and play with it there.

I mostly now do props for the commercial market simply because they dont take much longer than poser models but I make 10 times as much from them so even a few sales make me a profit, they are also usually by commision. 

Can't believe I've never noticed before, but is Daz 3D, Inc. NOT a publicly traded company?   Just looked and couldn't find a stock symbol for them.

(btw - Smith Micro stock - SMSI @ $1.73 on Fri. -- down from its 52wk high of $17.03)

Quote - From Their genesis marketing Ad copy they seem to think
they can now Make serious in roads into "pro pipelines"
because  of the abilities of genesis

They are not going for the 'pro' market, they are going for the 'prosumer' market. The same sort of customers who (in other media) buy expensive audio, video, software etc stuff but aren't ever gonna use it to make any money. There are plenty of people who are basically sick of the horrible tools crammed into Poser that will never improve as long as poser is an app for bored grannies to while away time between visits from their grand kids. These people want modern rigging, intuitive posing, decent rendering and don't mind paying for it, but balk at the huge time/money investment needed for truly 'pro' tools. So what exactly are they gonna get ? Vue which is just as complex these days as Maya or MAX ? Cararra ? C4D and VRay ? Right now D|S + genesis + lux/reality + whatever is about the only option that is fairly close to 'posering' as we know it and yet fairly modern and 'pro.'

And note that their marketing is exactly how eg audio equiptment is marketed for prosumers. "Buy our xg4322 amp, used by pros everywhere and get a true studio experience in your very own home"

genesis is certainly nothing any pro would ever even dream of using if they wanted to keep his/her job. They use figures built specifically for the job. Not some spin dial  limited use transformer.

"They are not going for the 'pro' market, they are going for the 'prosumer' market."

We that is your view of the matter
.Mine however is based on this:
The DAZ|Studio 4 FAQ states, :Quote - "Is the GenesisTM series compatible with Poser?
The Genesis series of figures relies on powerful new technologies that are currently exclusive to DAZ Studio 4. However, the new file format that the Genesis series utilizes is an open, ASCII format that can be interpreted easily. DAZ 3D is ready to help all those who are interested in adding support for this new platform within their own tools and applications*, such as Poser by Smith Micro. A SDK is currently in development, and* DAZ 3D has already reached out to several partners with hopes that they will be able to add support for the Genesis series within their own applications.

If you have a favorite application or tool that you would like to see support this new figure and the underlying technologies, please contact the developers and let them know of your desire to have them support this next generation figure platform in their application."

I see nothing about selling the copies of DS4 Advanced+LUX/Reality option
to "prosumers" who want  something better than those YOU call the "grandma's" who use poser.

"And note that their marketing is exactly how eg audio equiptment is marketed for prosumers. "Buy our xg4322 amp, used by pros everywhere and get a true studio experience in your very own home"

I respectfully disagree
the reason being that whenever a company tries to sell a regular consumer a product claiming it to be comparable to what" industry professionals" are using they ALWAYS do so via a Price/Feature comparison
Just watch any modern day infomercial.

"our $199 Kitchen Ninja can  grind ice into snow Just like  these $1200 Devices used by professional Chefs."

(insert crappy unflattering photo of  unnamed $1200 food processor here)

I never see these infomercials blathering on about how they have: "already reached out to several partners with hopes that they will be able to add support for our Kitchen ninja,Nuwave convection oven etc series within their own professional restaurants"

Just as I dont see DAZ Claiming the  $429 DS4 advanced+genesis can produce the same Film quality output as the expensive programs used by Digital Domain & Industrial Light and Magic.
And then  showing the "prosumer" Character animation Examples composited with live actors/ footage  to "prove it"

Cheers

If only all wars were like this one.

Wolf, I think your analysis is correct... based on what we see and know at the moment.

I'm wondering, though, if DAZ have some thoughts to sell 3D content to the so far uninterested general public (ie, the Mr and Mrs Average I mentioned earlier).  Perhaps even without the aid of a rendering app such as D|S but somthing that'll sit in a browser and allow punters to make simple animated avatars.  Just guessing here. 

Quote - > Quote - There are plenty of people who are basically sick of the horrible tools crammed into Poser that will never improve as long as poser is an app for bored grannies to while away time between visits from their grand kids

And what, pray tell, are those "horrible tools" you mention?

Because, unless I'm mistaken, Poser is improving, IBL, AO, IDL, GC, new rigging in P8, weight-mapping in P9, new interface are just some of the examples of things that didn't exist in Poser 5.

 

All for a lower initial price than DAZ Studio 4 Advanced Pro...

And weight mapped Antonia? Anyone want something like that?

Quote - And weight mapped Antonia? Anyone want something like that?

Ooooooooo.... Yes please! :)

Laurie

That and many others on the way. I'm just having a blast. This is FUN!!!

I think it's really unsettling how so many people on the DAZ forums are wetting themselves with joy over conformers that have just outright terrible fitting, even on the basic FBMs.  What's up with that.

Quote
"And weight mapped Antonia? Anyone want something like that?
That and many others on the way. I'm just having a blast. This is FUN!!!"

Oh yes, would very much like to see those :)

  Nice to see you reappear :)

lmk

dlfurman wrote,

Quote - The war has begun for the minds, hearts, loyalty and most importanly DOLLARS of you folks (we folks!) who use either POSER or DazStudio. And it now in the open.

There is no war. Just a lot of outspoken people and a few annoyingly juvenile "my toy is better than your toy" people, (both Poser and DAZ Studio users).

dlfurman wrote,

Quote - The counter shot comes from Daz3D in its latest newsletter annoucing the disappearance of Steph4 for Genesis. In said newsletter you may select from a number of badges "...to flash all over the world wide web" proclaiming "I am DAZ" or "DAZAHOLIC".

Counter shot? Nope. Those particular DAZ badges have been out for weeks.

WandW wrote,

Quote - I don't think there will be a V5 in the same sense as earlier Vickies-it will just be another shape and weight map for the Genesis mesh.

From what I understand, V5 will be another shape plus morphs.

Nance wrote,

Quote - Can't believe I've never noticed before, but is Daz 3D, Inc. NOT a publicly traded company?

Nope. Privately held.

Coldrake

Hi Masha, lkendall.  waves back

Good to see you too.  :biggrin:

Quote - If only all wars were like this one.

Yep

P6 James weighs in on the matter

Cheers

GENESIS

Thanks for the confirmation Coldrake.

Quote - > Quote - If only all wars were like this one.

 Yep
P6 James weighs in on the matter

 Cheers

GENESIS

LOL!

DAZ and Poser have both screwed up.

How many IDL renders do you see in the Poser gallery?

Dynamic cloth renders?

Dynamic hair renders?

Raytraced renders?

How many Poser users ever use the face or setup room?

DAZ and the Poser team have forgotten what got them here... hobbyists.

What hoops will we have to jump through to get a conforming pair of pants to bend the same way as a weight mapped Mike3?

We will not see this in the galleries unless it is all made for ease of use. Most Poser users will not use weight mapping unless it helps their workflow.

I get the feeling the Poser team listens to the brainiacs in this forum more than they actually look at the galleries and see what folks are ACTUALLY using.

DAZ's genesis being able to morph into anything is genius... being limited by weight mapping to DAZ Studio is complete business stupidity.

 DAZ and the Poser team are catering to the exact same customer base.

Make products that are actually useful to the target customer.

Poser Pro 2010 works fine... don't need weight mapping... I can postwork knees... so doubt I'll be buying 2012 for at least a year or more

Quote - How many IDL renders do you see in the Poser gallery?

All of my renders since getting Poser 8 are rendered with IDL

Quote - Dynamic cloth renders?

I use dynamic cloth and I even make my own.

Quote - Dynamic hair renders?

I've used it.

Quote - Raytraced renders?

All my renders are also raytraced.

Quote - How many Poser users ever use the face or setup room?

I've used the setup room to make shoes and I'm no guru by any stretch of the imagination. I don't use the faceroom because I don't care for the Poser figures.

Quote - DAZ and the Poser team have forgotten what got them here... hobbyists.

I don't Smith Micro has. I'm not even sure Daz has even if they may be trying to get used by those who do work professionally

Quote - What hoops will we have to jump through to get a conforming pair of pants to bend the same way as a weight mapped Mike3?

Won't know that until we get the new version.

Quote - We will not see this in the galleries unless it is all made for ease of use. Most Poser users will not use weight mapping unless it helps their workflow.

I plan on learning and using it. I may even try to convert my existing figures.

Quote - I get the feeling the Poser team listens to the brainiacs in this forum more than they actually look at the galleries and see what folks are ACTUALLY using.

Most Poser users get what they want. The vendors supply just that. Most Poser content is click, load and render. How much easier can it get?

Quote - DAZ's genesis being able to morph into anything is genius... being limited by weight mapping to DAZ Studio is complete business stupidity.

I agree with this for the most part.

Quote - DAZ and the Poser team are catering to the exact same customer base.

Yep. Users, like always.

Quote - Make products that are actually useful to the target customer.

I just don't see how it could be easier, especially with Poser Debut. Novices can work with that just fine without all the extra, deeper stuff that the rest of us have come to enjoy. Anyone that wants dead=easy can get Debut. More experienced users get the basic version or Pro according to what their needs are.

Now I am just an average user and I've done all of what you claim hardly anyone does. I'm not alone either. If you take a quick glance thru the forum you'll notice that there are more and more threads on dynamic clothes and more and more are using dynamics.

Laurie

Cassandra quietly surveys the landscape, sighs, and moves on.....

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?section_id=1&genre_id=

show me... don't talk about it

folks using it are posting in the galleries... only us 100 folks are talking about it

you're assuming the renderosity gallery represents the state of the art, which is a bit dubious (no offense to anybody)

You are right. I was being an ass.

In the whole arena of ALL the folks who BUY Poser...

How many actually use dynamics, IDL, the setup room and face room?

Honestly... asking yourself.

Will weight mapping be used by over 50% of Poser BUYERS?

Now ask... how many Poser users would use a ecosystem type thing in Poser.

THAT would make Poser easily useful - for hobbyists buyers.

Will weight mapping be used by over 50% of Poser BUYERS?

If the popular figures are weight mapped the answer is yes. Everyone uses falloff zones at this point, so why not weight maps?

That being said, not many Poser users are likely to create their own weight maps.

Vicki3 bends down to pick a flower... her thigh flattens... I weight map it ( I'm assuming ) to round her thigh for the bend... I have to weight map the jeans she's wearing as well?

Vicki3 bends down to pick a flower... her thigh flattens... I weight map it ( I'm assuming ) to round her thigh for the bend... I have to weight map the jeans she's wearing as well?

It could be as simple as pressing the "weight map conform to figure" option. Time will tell.,

Then they would be showing it, my friend.

THAT would be sold like mad in many visuals.

Going to bed. My rant is done. Sorry for offending anyone.