looks at 25 posts Wow, maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase 'simple'. Though it turned out it was in fact the normals. I apologize for wasting everyone's time, never had that happen before, though I suppose this mesh is rather complex. Sorry for taking so long to respond back, when I said 'after work' I should have mentioned it's a 14 hour day for me.

It's far too ugly to post though, it did work. Bill's pics pretty much sum it up.

thanks so much guys, you're wonderful.