Wow! That looks terrific, BB! Exactly what I'm after. The render time should be as short as possible, but since it's a product for sale, I can't say how it would be used. I imagine a lot of people would use pieces of the pack as background objects, but some might want to do product photography-style shots, especially with these being beauty products, which tend to look good in still lifes. A result like that justifies a longer render time, but 3' 38" is more than acceptable. Re Bar Italia - I honestly can't remember. I do know that I had a lot of trouble with it, and one member (The Retired Sailor) who was beta-testing it, helped out with settings. In fact, I think he was the one who came up with the mix of Anisotropic/Refract nodes that I still use. I bet he picked your brain though. LOL. Re nodes - You mentioned Fresnel. Every time I use that, I get really long render times, even dropping the quality down, (I generally use an RT bounce of 4 - 6). That's why I've tended to avoid it. Great work! mac