Per the title - I'm trying to get into developing and editing (as high a quality for the price and learning time) 3D models for Poser 9 (mostly clothing).  There are several products out there and I'm hoping this post can save me a lot of digging.

Can anyone advise which one is the best to start with considering: (1) learning curve, (2) features, (3) price, (4) wide acceptance/usage?

Thanks!

Modo for modelling, and a good image manip app( Photoshop/Gimp) for texturing.

For learning curve I'd try Wings3D. If you've never modeled before you just can't start with anything any easier :). The objects from Wings transfer over nicely to Poser too. Perhaps after you've learned to model you can think about stepping up?

IF you already know how to model, then Silo is a good choice. Not very expensive, powerful and makes Poser-friendly objects.

You could also try Blender (which is free) if you don't mind pulling your hair out now and then. However, it does do just about EVERYTHING. ;)

Laurie

which ever one you are most comfortable with.  Download the demos and have a play

I noticed that Renderosity had a sale on LittleFox's Modo tutorial, so I checkout out the Modo website.  Absolutely beautiful examples - BUT - does anyone have any idea on how long they took to create?  I have seen stunning 3D images created in Adobe Illustrator, but after working in 3DSMax I would not dream of using 2D Adobe products for demanding 3D work.  For me, it would just take too long.

Even though the $1K price for Modo is steep, time is a problem more than funds.  Before I pay out for Modo I want to make sure I shouldn't have done something with Maya (etc.).  I also don't want to spend the next 3 weekends putting the time into learning Modo - only to now find out that the free Modo demo software I downloaded is limited (and I now am cornered into spending the $1K to actually get something useful into Poser - else I have to trash the time I spent leanring Modo as I switch over to some other software).

I'll be checking out LaurieA's advice, and looking into Wings3D and Silo.  I'd rather spend money than pull my hair out, so I'll be bypassing her Blender suggestion.

Any other recommendations?  What software have the "pros" settled on (if any)?

Thanks again,  - Ken

A lot of modellers also come with their own texturing and rendering software.  Since you are creating for Poser they are somewhat of an overkill, but to get the tools you will want you might have to go that route.

I use Lightwave (discount price with a crossgrade offer). I believe modo is similar to Lightwave. I know a few Lightwave users who went to Modo. You can also look at Cinema 4d, silo, shade, hexagon, wings3d, BLENDER etc. try the interfaces and see what you like using.  Most now have a free demo for download.  

Maya, Cinema 4d, 3dsmax may be well past your preferred budget.

If you are doing organic figures you might also look at Rhino.

For poser you want a basic modeller without a lot of frills. Things like sub-d surfaces, smoothing etc just dont translate into Poser.  The modeller should allow you to specify materials groups and bodypart groups if possible. That just makes getting it tinto Poser that much easier. 

Best modelling package for Poser?

Ain't no such animal.  The best for me could be useless to you and vice versa.  I use Wings and it's absolute simplicity to learn and use.  Don't be fooled by a price tag; a modeller that is capable of making what you want with the minimum of hair tearing out is the best one for you.  

As your skills improve you may want to do more and look for a package with more and/or better features.  Even so, the free apps are perfectly capable of producing first class results.  Many modellers here use free apps for creating Marketplace content. 

Quote - Even though the $1K price for Modo is steep, time is a problem more than funds.

For me - and I would say most hobbyists - funds is infinitely more of a problem than time. Well, this hobby, anyway. Oh, I would so love modo - the website promos are mouthwatering - but there is no way I could justify $1000. If I had to buy Poser Pro 2012 at full price, there's no way I could justify that. I got into the higher-end versions of Poser and Vue (still working  my way up with Vue) through specials on side-grades, etc.

modo will always be like those unattainables.

Interestingly, Photoshop was that for me as well, but I was able to buy a boxed, shrink-wrapped copy of CS3 (CS5 had just come out) for AUD$80 on eBay on a slow bidding night. That, I could afford.

Whatever you can afford and find works the best for you.

Wings3D has been around a long time.  Anton used Wings to create his Apollo Max figure.

IIRC, Blackhearted uses Silo.

Before Modo, DAZ used Lightwave.

If you can find the book by Les Pardew meant as a companion to early versions of DS, there is a copy of Hexagon on book disk.

Google trueSpace.  It's free if the site is still up.

For modeling I take wings3d, free and perfect for all Poser modelling.

I have made in it from clothes to vehicles, human, animals, well, for me one of the best and easy to start learning.

Keep in mind that if you are a beginner and have never done any modeling, you're better off starting in something simple like Wings. The things you learn in Wings you can take to any other modeling program, bought or free. They still apply. The only thing Wings doesn't have that other free programs like Blender has are paths and splines. But I would learn to box model first and go from there. You'll be box modeling more than anything else anyway ;).

Laurie

"Even though the $1K price for Modo is steep, time is a problem more than funds."

every aspect of (quality) content creation takes time in abundance.

as for your original question: find an app whose interface/workflow you are comfortable with.  for the most part they all do pretty much the same thing*.*

Wings3D has been around a long time.  Anton used Wings to create his Apollo Max figure.

Source? I thought he used Lightwave.

Modo is very useful for creating Poser content. Personally, I think it's the best program for this sort of thing if money is no object. While you're at it, buy Zbrush as well for organic sculpts and morphs.

If the $1000 Cost is not an obstacle for you than I reccomend MODO

 We have 401 and the Preview engine in 501 is even better.

Cheers

After looking at a couple of websites - it's down to Silo at $110 (+ $32 for the Amazon book) or Modo at $1K (and Littlefoxes $40 tutorial).

Can someone summarize why I might want to spend the additional money for Modo over Silo? 

Also, I bought a used copy of 3DSMax about a year ago and learned it via lynda.com courses.  I'm surprised no one mentioned 3DSMax.  Why not? 

These replies have been a HUGE help!  Thanks to all,  - Ken

"After looking at a couple of websites - it's down to Silo at $110 (+ $32 for the Amazon book) or Modo at $1K (and Littlefoxes $40 tutorial).Can someone summarize why I might want to spend the additional money for Modo over Silo? "

Hi I have Silo 2.x as well
Silo is a very Good Model package but its development seem to have halted IFAIK.
MODO is more of A complete CG package with an incredibly Fast and beautiful render engine
and it  Does have Superior modeling Tools  over Silo
You will find yourself wanting to render in MODO over firefly
it has it own Fur engine and  it will import your object files exported from poser and render them which much better results than fire fly could ever approach and multitudes faster.
And it Also Supports the MDD Format DAZ studio will export the genesis figure
( still or animated )as an MDD file so you have the option to render Genesis Figures in MODO  as well. 

"Also, I bought a used copy of 3DSMax about a year ago and learned it via lynda.com courses.  I'm surprised no one mentioned 3DSMax.  Why not?"

Honestly if indeed you have an Industry standard pro App like Autodesk Max that is only one year Old+ Excellent third party training courses from lynda.com then I wonder why you  are even looking for another program at this point.

Cheers  

The reason no one's mentioned 3DSMax is probably because most here can't justify that enormous cost for a hobby (most here are only hobbyists) and therefore don't use it.

Laurie

the point is to pick an app and stick with it.  i know people who have been hopping back and forth between 3D suites for a decade now and still can't model for shit.

a lot of people read about new features in xxxxx program and think its going to do most of the modeling work for them.  the reality is that there is no magic 'make model' button unless you just want to make a sphere (well, Max can make you a teapot). some apps have shortcuts for certain surfaces but unless you learn the fundamentals of modeling youre just going to hit a wall the moment you encounter a complex surface.

the basics of poly and sub-D modeling are the same across all apps. if you really do have a copy of Max, then stop worrying about what app youre using and start doing some tutorials and learning how to model.  Max has been an industry standard 3D suite for over a decade and its not going to hold you back any. a simple google search for '3ds/Max modeling tutorial' will net you thousands of results.

I second Blackhearteds comments on sub-D modelling being pretty much the same across all packages.

If you have Max and it's a bit overwhelming in terms of volume and complexity of tools then Modo is probably not for you.  Silo is a very neat, uncomplicated app with a gentle learning curve so I'd recommend that.

If you have Max and the complexity isn't an issue then I'd stick with it.  If for no other reason than Modo doesn't have a cloth simulator that I know of, and Max does.

From what I remember Max had a garment modifier that worked in much the same way as marvelous designer.  So if you are planning on doing lots of clothes then that would be a big plus for Max.

I don't know why you want to spend any money at all when there is Blender. It is now quite easy to learn and lots of good tutorials available. Spend the money on hardware instead.

Hexagon served me well over the years. Not too expensive, yet very excellent modeling tools. Before I started to use it, I followed a good number of the tutorials that float around the net and once I spent some time learning, I was happily creating all kinds of models with it.

Just keep in mind that with creating clothes for Poser, the modeling application is only the start. The next thing after modeling is getting the clothes fitted to a figure. I recall I found that much more challenging. I haven't done it for a year now and I don't remember how to at all.

Based on experience with other applications over the years, I've concluded that if I'm going to spend time learning an application - it's better to buy one than use a free one.  Although I'm sure there must be exceptions out there, in my experience the free ones have poor software quality control.

I have to take another look at my present copy of 3DSMax as a modeling program for Poser. 

I really appreciate aeilkema's comment on fitting the clothes to the model.  It's a typical "gotcha" that I'd overlook while starting out.

Question: what are the bext tutorials or books out there for Poser?  I'd really like to use 3dsmax since I have it, or would have considered modo since that's what littlefox uses in his/her poser tutorials.  I'm leaning towards Silo based on other recommendations - but in general I need Poser specific tutorials or books for these packages.  Any recommendations?  Thanks!

If you know how to model you should be able to use Littlefox's Modo tutorial for instance, in 3DS Max, or Silo, or Hexagon. All that needs be done is use the similar tools that she's instructing to use and their equivalent in your program of choice. I do it all the time.

Laurie

"but in general I need Poser specific tutorials or books for these packages.  Any recommendations?  Thanks!"

Hi if you have not developed a certain skill level  in any modeling program then a poser clothes making tutorial using a specific program may not help you much

You have  Autodesk MAX
  it is a great polygonal modeling app from what I have seen.
you should become well versed in the MAX modeling tools and any poser tutorials on make clothing for figure will be easy to follow using your own modeling tool in MAX .

Cheers

If you already have Max and are looking for something to help you make clothes easily, why not look at Marvelous Designer? Try the free trial and see if it suits you.

You could also look at PhilC's clothing designer utilities to help you get off to a running start. I use those.

I purchased Silo mainly due to the fact that Fugazi1968 used it in his superb Digital Tailor series.  I tried using his tutorials with Hexagon but I found it too hard, others might find it easy mind.  

Silo looked easy to use in the tutorials and so I tried the trial version, then later purchased it as I found it suited me a lot better than Hexagon.  It was also useful to me when using the Digital Tailor tutorials as, if my model does not look correct, I could rewind the tutorial and take it step by step, much better than trying to follow any manual.  Almost as an added bonus, using the tutorials I have learnt to model some clothes and a  few props while learning Silo along the way (I have no connection with Fugazi1968 other than being a happy customer and having benefited from his help on more than one occasion).

If you do go for Silo try the 'look inside' at Amazon and you will see a code for a discount on the purchase which I used for further savings (I did buy the book though as it seemed the fair thing to do).

Quote - I don't know why you want to spend any money at all when there is Blender. It is now quite easy to learn and lots of good tutorials available. Spend the money on hardware instead.

This ^^^   Blender has come a long way. The beta render engine Cycles is also a huge plus. You don't have to use Cycles, the default render engine is still in it.

Just keep in mind that when you install Blender, most of it is not on by default, you have to turn on many of the advanced features from the settings window.

You can also turn on the Maya setting in it as well if you prefer to do things similar to how you do them in Maya.

You can also turn on the Maya setting in it as well if you prefer to do things similar to how you do them in Maya.

And thank God for that. Blender's native, interactive object rotate is about the most infuriating thing I've ever encountered. *

Quote - You can also turn on the Maya setting in it as well if you prefer to do things similar to how you do them in Maya.

And thank God for that. Blender's native, interactive object rotate is about the most infuriating thing I've ever encountered. *

Actually, I don't mind so much it's way of rotating objects: it's the RMB for selecting everything. Goes against everything I know and drives me nuts ;). That's the first thing I change...lol.

Having said that, Blender is a fine choice...it's definitely coming up in the world.

Laurie

Cinema 4D, ZBrush and Marvelous Designer is the ultimate Rolls-Royce package for content creation. By this I mean fast and easy.

There are more powerful tools out there (Max and Maya) but it will take you at least twice times as long to do anything in those programs even as an expert.

Quote - I purchased Silo mainly due to the fact that Fugazi1968 used it in his superb Digital Tailor series.  I tried using his tutorials with Hexagon but I found it too hard, others might find it easy mind.  

Silo looked easy to use in the tutorials and so I tried the trial version, then later purchased it as I found it suited me a lot better than Hexagon.  It was also useful to me when using the Digital Tailor tutorials as, if my model does not look correct, I could rewind the tutorial and take it step by step, much better than trying to follow any manual.  Almost as an added bonus, using the tutorials I have learnt to model some clothes and a  few props while learning Silo along the way (I have no connection with Fugazi1968 other than being a happy customer and having benefited from his help on more than one occasion).

If you do go for Silo try the 'look inside' at Amazon and you will see a code for a discount on the purchase which I used for further savings (I did buy the book though as it seemed the fair thing to do).

I have also found Fugazi1968's tutorials excellent for learning to model clothes and Silo is very friendly to learn. A great combination for anyone just starting! 

If you already have Max, just use it. It has a complete toolset and there are tons of tutorials available for it. Only look for other software if you cannot get along with it.

I get along pretty well with Silo when doing organinc models like persons and clothing, and I'm learning ZBrush at the moment for detailing. For non-organic models, I use Hexagon. I plan to get Marvelous Designer for dynamic clothing soon. If you need to do just clothing and prefer dynamic cloth, make sure to try the test version.

If you already have Max, just use it.

giggles insanely

*thanks to being married to a teacher, I have the educational edition to play with. just use it? I wish...... I've got no where with it yet.... (but I can use Hexagon, Sketchup, trueSpace..... ) maybe I needs a new brain...

Sat down this afternoon to play with my copy of 3DSMax 8 which I purchased used last year - only to find out that the darn activation code was only good for a year.  Submitted a request stating such to Autodesk, but alas - no weekend coverage.

Based on what I've read here (price, features, learning materials, learning curve), looks like I'll be checking out Silo in more depth tomorrow ...

Well, here's the latest status

3DSMax - what a rip off!

I found out that the 3 levels and 5 year old used copy of 3dsmax I bought in 2010 for $200 (and spent time learning) was actually a one year student edition!  Unlike everyone else's software - no where was that stated - neither on the packaging nor on the software.  

• I've had great luck with other used, back level software (espeically - the Adobe Creative Suite).  Does anyone know of anyone else (besides Autodesk) that isn't clear on what thier used software is (i.e., temporary or permant licenses)? (so I can beware).

Silo3D - Am making my way through the tutorials.  So far - not bad.

Modo - I am still admiring the renders on their website.  Haven't gotten to the point to rendering in Silo3D.  Does anyone know how their compares with each other (and with Poser 9 for that matter)?

Question:  Modo seems to have a lot of plug-ins.  Does one actually need to buy a set of them to do common things in Poser?  Pls advise.  Thanks!

I use Gmax, it's free -- but, you need to compile .object files seperately for poser afterward, which is a major pain in the ass sadly.

I use Blender more and more now ;). Once you can move around a bit and memorize the obligatory 1% of it's gazillion shortcut keys, you've got it made....lol.

Actually, I do it a disservice. There are probably more tutorials for Blender floating around the internet than probably any other software there is. If you can't figure out how to use it, it's not for lack of a lot of people trying to teach you ;). It also has everthing, fluid sim, ocean sim, dynamic paint, uv editor, particle systems, weight painting, rigging, sculpting, animating, a beautiful new render engine...you name it ;). And all free. How can ya beat that? LOL

Laurie

Quote - Silo3D - Am making my way through the tutorials.  So far - not bad.

Modo - I am still admiring the renders on their website.  Haven't gotten to the point to rendering in Silo3D.  Does anyone know how their compares with each other (and with Poser 9 for that matter)?

Silo does not have a render engine so you will need to export your model as an .obj file and import it into Poser.

Silo is just a modeller. Modo does a whole host of other things including rendering. It all depends on what you want but I find for modelling Silo is straightforward and the interface very user friendly.

Can he UV Mapping be done in Silo?  If so - how does one view it without a rendering engine?

... how to design and fit a UV map to a mesh has always mystified me....

Silo can do uv-mapping. I'm not very good in creating perfect UVs, but Silo does have an unwrapping feature, which gave me very usable results. You mark the edges which will be used as seams and let Silo create a map, which you can still change afterwards.

can Modo run okay on a 32-bit Vista pc with 3gb?

Thanks.

I've been saving up for 64-bitz compy, but after reading this thread i'm leaning to spending my new compy savings on Modo instead.

There's not much activity in the Modo forum.

Danke Uwe! - but without a Silo renderer how does one determine whether the UV Map generated in Silo is correct?

Wie kann man feststellen entweder den UVMap richtig angepasst ist?

• Ken

nevermind.  site says Modo requires an internet connection for activation.

what i like about Silo is that when you need something done, you just grab the poly/vert/edge and DO it. its all very slick and intuitive.

i tried the Modo demo the other night and was extremely frustrated with it. first off you cant simply remap the mouse/keyboard keys with a simple GUI interface, you can either load from a short list of presets or you need a programming degree to deal with their keymapping interface.

and then in the actual workflow, there are 'extra steps' for everything. you need to activate modes, toggle buttons, etc. while this doesnt seem like a big deal to someone coming from a program like Max - if youre used to using Silo it all seems extremely clunky.

my biggest pet peeve was with basic functions like extrude. in Silo when you extrude, it automatically spawns an interactive manipulator at the center of the extrusion, and as you drag on it it automatically extrudes along normals. in Modo its just a freeform drag that moves the extruded poly around in 3D space. theres no interactive extrude along normals type gizmo, and if you want more control you need to type in the X/Y/Z distances manually. same goes for bevel, etc. functions like extrude and bevel are the bread and butter of modeling, and you use them hundreds of times per day. if each one takes 3x as long and feels 3x as clunky that adds up to a lot of wasted time. now if Modo has added some sortof improvements to these functions that im not able to find in the docs then my apologies - but i did mess with the program quite a bit and also did extensive google searching for a solution and it seems that the feature just doesnt exist.

its unfortunate that Silo development is not as strong as the development for a major suite by Autodesk, for example. but the beauty of Silo is that its just a simple, straightforward, stripped down modeling tool without all the BS bloat thats in every other 3D suite these days. in other apps i find that at least a third of my effort goes towards wrestling with the interface. in Silo, its almost like there is no interface - just you and your model. i suspect that this is why it has become a popular modeling tool for even industry professionals that have access to Maya, Max, Softimage, etc.

Blackhearted - this is absolutely SUPER feedback!  From what I remember about 3DSMax and what I recently played with on Silo last weekend, it rings so true.

... but once you wrap a mesh in a uv map using Silo, how do you render it?

(P.S. - my Silo book is still coming from Amazon, so please forgive me if this is a basic question).

Thanks!  - Ken

"but once you wrap a mesh in a uv map using Silo, how do you render it?"

in Poser :)

you should be viewing your meshes in Poser anyway, since there are extra considerations when it comes to modeling for Poser smoothing... when it comes to creating meshes for Poser, WYS isnt always WYG.

worst case scenario, you can always just selectively disable smoothing for your objects in Poser (under the object's Properties tab).

my biggest pet peeve was with basic functions like extrude. in Silo when you extrude, it automatically spawns an interactive manipulator at the center of the extrusion, and as you drag on it it automatically extrudes along normals. in Modo its just a freeform drag that moves the extruded poly around in 3D space. theres no interactive extrude along normals type gizmo, and if you want more control you need to type in the X/Y/Z distances manually. same goes for bevel, etc. functions like extrude and bevel are the bread and butter of modeling, and you use them hundreds of times per day.

If you are dealing with polygon tools in Modo, you may find the extrude functionality you seek with the "Bevel" tool. It comes with a user friendly widget to extrude out along the normal.

Under the Mesh Edit tools you will find a proper extrude tool with an interactive manipulator in the center allowing you to drag and extrude in the expected manner.

Extruding edges has the normal widgets as well.

About the only extrude method in Modo that doesn't have the interactive widgets is the Sketch Extrude.

thats what i am referring to, mainly

and while it seems like there are workarounds, it all just seems clunky to me. in silo there is one extrude - you select what you want to extrude, hit [Z], and youre in business.the whole process takes a split second and one keypress and youre focused 100% on what you are doing to your mesh instead of clicking BS in your interface to get you there.

its the fact that after using it for just a few days, you can easily and intuitively work in Silo without clunky buttons/rollouts/interface elements in the way (or you can enable its minimalist buttons if you need them, or set them to show when you press the spacebar). there are a handful of easily remappable hotkeys to memorize for common operations and then you can just focus on working on your mesh and the manipulator without having to just DEAL with the interface all the time.

im a minimalist. i believe that the perfect interface is one you do not even realize is there. max, modo, c4d, etc have a long way to go on this front. i always feel like im wading through bloated interface elements when im using them.

my main gripe with Silo is that it lacks common non-destructive deformers (but hell id settle for destructive ones at this point) like Max's bend/twist/taper/etc, and that its array controls kindof suck. other than that i very rarely find myself needing something it cant do, or thinking that it would be easier in another program.

Not bad Blackhearted...

And how the hell did you manage to steal my Tsuba from my offline workbox.  You are truely a wizard.

I admire someone as talented as you using Silo over the big boys.  Your work is proof positive of how well it works.

kfreed:

O.K., here is my suggetion for an application to use if you feel Silo won't fit your needs:

Nendo

Take care...

Ken

wow I hadnt heard about silo but I watched the video and it looks really good.. especially for $109 right now... That is actually a realistic Pricetag for someone just getting a start.. and some cool features too.  I'm trying to install the demo but it hates me for some reason