Quote - The situation for Poser users right now is simply like this:

 

1. Ignore Genesis and make do with an inferior mesh.

 

1. Switch over to Studio 4.

 

1. Lobby for SmithMicro to build the necessary plugins so that Genesis can be run in Poser 9/PP 2012 natively with all the features it has in Studio 4.

 

You have neglected possibility 4:

Weight map your most extreme figures and,  say,  D3 (PhilC wrote a script). Load your  figures as FBMs of D3.  Use CC's Poser Morph Loader to animate the joint centers for those FBMs.  You now have a Gen 3 analogue of Genesis; call her "Jenni-3".

Of course it would be much more work than that in practice because virtually all of the JCMs would need to be eliminated and the weightmapping tweaked to compensate. 

Such a figure would be much more detailed than Genesis.  It would need to be encoded against D3 for distribution...

EDIT from a practical consideration, M3 would probably be a better base as it is free...

Quote - Posette vs Vicky 1.

This was the last time we all had true freedom of choice.

Actually, they were both Zygote figures... :biggrin:

I agree that having multiple sources is a good point on those grounds, rather than just ABD. Beyond situations like that which should not be mentioned, different sources are more likely to have different styles and techniques. Even if you have different modelers, company A may nudge them more in the direction of their corporate vision of how figures should be created. 

Ideally, all the sources would have something approaching comparable resources. It really does seem to me that an SM backed figure would have a better shot at gaining traction and longevity than a cottage effort. The only downside I see is that coming from different sources is probably going to lower compatibility e.g. a 3rd party Laura wouldn't take V3 morphs. IF Genesis fulfills its hype then being able to use textures, clothing etc. across a wide variety of body shapes and 'figures' would seem like a huge plus. I agree with the danger of monolopy but without a decent product, a monopoly isn't going to survive (absent paid off pols).

I think I've seen enough of what some of the Poser 'hobbiests', that some seem to look down as non-professionals, can do that I can confidently say that IF a 'poser plugin' was made that allowed poser to do all the things that are needed to make genesis work in poser, you'd still see a 3rd party figure developed to take advantage of it.  

Would it kill genesis? no.. probably not.  but I do think the entrentched Idea that ALL figures MUST come from DAZ has taken a needed beating and the future will continue to remain more diversified not less, which is highly ironic given that the cause of the split was an attempt to make things less diversified.

Quote - > Quote -

IMO renderosity should either send items that don't sell into the freebie area or create a bargain basement section.  No sales or coupons good there, but everything is $.99 if the merchant wants to keep it there.

I too wish they would set up a Bargain Basement.  I've had items on my WL that were nice, but a bit too dear, and they just end up vanishing.  It's not like there's a lot of inventory cost...

Well, they used to have the "Warehouse".  I wonder what happened with that idea...

====

Quote - This makes me wonder if V4 is the last great Poser figure.  Has the multitude of alternate figures divided the user base so much that no other single figure will ever be as widely used as V4 is now?!

Dunno about that. It could herald an explosion of usage, or kill it off completely. 

A good parallel is online gaming. Back in the 1990's, it was all about first-person shooters, and in that genre, it was all about Quake.  Quake II was the Vicky of online gaming.  Everyone made MODs for it. Everyone made maps for it. All the Quake II servers were populated. 

In 2000 or so, Unreal Tournament came out, and it was badass. It split the community almost equally in two. Then someone made Counterstrike (a Half-Life MOD). That split things into three, with CS taking massive marketshare. Then another game, then another... 

...eventually where once you had legions of mappers and mod coders you could choose from to make an excellent game MOD, you would up with next to no mindshare for any project, on any game, in spite of there being more mappers and coders than ever before. Everyone was working on their own little thing, and got approximately nowhere.

Then Unreal Tournament decided that they wanted to upgrade every year for awhile, which brought on new requirements and incompatibilities in MOD coding, which in turn meant no one could possibly keep up without making it their full-time job.

Eventually, the whole thing fractured to the point where most of the creativity and life had been killed off or driven away. Where there were once thousands of clans and tournaments, you now just had casual play, on the same default maps, in the same default modes.  Where once folks proudly wore their badges ( yes, my first clan was the Fraternity of United Quakers, and the tag stretched it to [FUQ]Penguinisto ), now it's just casual play. Where LAN parties could consume a weekend each month, now there's maybe one a year in the larger cities, if you're lucky. 

Once world+dog shifted to consoles, it pretty much wiped out the remains.

Long story short? Folks still play, in greater numbers than before... on consoles, and just casually. There just isn't the same creativity, camaraderie, or willingness to explore and push boundaries.

Maybe Poser will end up the same way, maybe not. So far, it's been all around one big figure, and all the other figures get scraps. I think it may continue this way if the Genesis things gets ported to Poser, but if not, then it'll likely be two main figures supported, and the other figures get bupkis (well, outside of Japan anyway), at least until one or the other app dies off.

Meanwhile, I think V4 will be like Quake III - something that lives well past its prime, kept alive by a whole lot of people.

Just to be clear, the main advantages that a company effort has over a 'cottage' one is money,  not necessarily talent.

Quote - Just to be clear, the main advantages that a company effort has over a 'cottage' one is money,  not necessarily talent.

Well that, and the ability to hire the talent you need. 

A company like DAZ gets burned CD/DVD disks daily, unsolicited. They contain mesh, demo reels, texture samples, things like that. These companies have the wherewithal to visit colleges and get internships from promising students with professional talent. They can afford to hire full-time industry pros. They have the equipment and gear to get the job done, and can procure anything they need beyond that. They can hire models by simply going out and soliciting offers from the local fashion industry.

Community efforts OTOH have to go out and ask for contributors.

So as to keep hyper-sensitive nerves from being ruffled, let's draw from a project I once was a part of: Weapons Factory MOD for Unreal Tournament.

Sometimes you get lucky and someone quite badassed will come on board, contributing something that definitely makes the project shine (the guy who did our skins/textures - total badass). Sometimes still you get ungodly lucky and more than one badass will pitch in. 

More commonly though, you have to wade through a mountain of dreck by decidedly non-professional contributors, and either find polite ways of saying no, or you somehow have to make do with what you do get until something better comes along. You end up with a core of a badass or two (the coders), a few competent folks helping out when they can (this is where I sat with some code, mapping, and sound effects), and a whole bunch of half-assed amateurs with pretense hanging on at the periphery.

Just the way it is, really.

Penguinisto speaks the truth.  :)   Didn't know you were part of Weapons Factory either, cool. I played a lot of UT with mods, too bad players back then were just as annoying as players today.  ;)

I should clarify one thing I said above, I was mainly referring to body shapes when I said that I hadn't seen anything that couldn't be duplicated fairly well with V4's morphs. I (and I doubt anyone else) could really duplicate Alice's face with default morphs.  :)

No offense, but if that is true, then why was Daz asking forumites there to write a manual? I mean, couldn't they also hire the "best and brightest" to do that as well? I'm not being MEAN..I'm just ASKING! LOL

Laurie

Quote - No offense, but if that is true, then why was Daz asking forumites there to write a manual? I mean, couldn't they also hire the "best and brightest" to do that as well? I'm not being MEAN..I'm just ASKING! LOL

Laurie

To be honest, I always wondered that too.

Thinking it though, I suspect it's because they don't/can't justify hiring a full-time tech writer, and contracting such things out is often more costly than it's worth. It is something they do need to rectify, though.

I did the 1.0 manual, and most subsequent versions were variations and modifications of that to suit new UI changes and new features. 4.x is different enough that they can no longer do that, so someone's going to have to write it from scratch. I'm just glad it's not me... no matter how much you like using the app, writing about that stuff is dry.

Quote - "Talk's cheap.  Renders don't cost that much.  Let's see your Antonia."

I'm not going to drop everything I'm doing to make something that you will ABSOLUTELY find fault with because you're fiercely entrenched in the opposite camp as I am. Looking at that Antonia pic above in the three figure pic, I honestly think I would have a harder time making something that looks like that Alyson base (LOL, I'm sorry, but....man oh man). I also don't have Antonia installed, so any attempt would just be eyeballing it from a pic. But honestly, if you think that figure shape shown above is so original that it can't be duplicated, you really need to try turning some dials once in a while. That's not saying it's bad - she looks decent enough in that pic - but not something that the 3D community has never seen before.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do spin dials, and I've spent countless hours trying to get a figure that looked as I wanted out of V3 and v4.  Results, disappointing.  Move the figure from the T pose, more disappointing.  Which gives me a choice, spend hours twiddling dials, get a result that isn't what I really want, or click twice and load Antonia.  You make the decision. 

The hundreds or maybe even thousands of clothing items that are available for V4 mean nothing when less than five percent are something I'd spend any money for.  That which is available that I'd actually use, I already probably have.  Or, from a vendor point of view, I'm a dead end.  So be it, I don't pursue the hobby to provide a living for someone else.  But V4 will be around for years to come, which in no way minimalizes that some of us have different ideas about what we want to do, and which figures will fill that wish.  But don't disparage and discourage simply to protect your favored figure, a lot of us think she sucks.

"But don't disparage and discourage simply to protect your favored figure, a lot of us think she sucks"

:sigh:  When did I do any of that? I even complimented Antonia, saying that she looked decent in the pic that was shown. All I said was that I think she has a shape that could be duplicated with V4.

I could also say EXACTLY the same thing about the vocal Antonia supporters here. You guys have a coronary every time someone says anything less-than-stellar about her.

Thank you to those who gave intelligent responses to my question earlier.

Quote - I wish the market was big enough to support more diversity.

Bring your friends into the hobby or use of the programs or whatever you want to call it.

Myself and a number of other vendors are in a predicament where we're not at loss for ideas, but we always have to go for what we think will sell the most, because the market is so small, you can't survive making things that don't sell like crazy. End result it - less alternative content.

Yes, there are also people who do this part time and don;t depend on it for the income, I did that with my first couple of products. What happens on that end of things is issue of time management. If you're working at something 2-3 hours a day, instead of 8-12, it takes more day to make things.... end result is, less alternative content.

As for the figures .... never say never ;)

Makes me wonder if there's a need for tools to streamline the creation process.

Quote - I think that DAZ did a pretty good job with deriving Laura and Maddie from the V3 mesh 

Actually Laura and Maddie came from David 3's mesh along with Luke and Matt; found that out playing around with the different Gen3 meshes.

Quote - "But don't disparage and discourage simply to protect your favored figure, a lot of us think she sucks"

 

:sigh:  When did I do any of that? I even complimented Antonia, saying that she looked decent in the pic that was shown. All I said was that I think she has a shape that could be duplicated with V4.

If you bother to go back and read your own words, from the beginning, you will see, not in the exact words, but your inference is "there  is no need for anything but the V thing in her many iterations, for every use, when all it takes is more money and many hours work to reach a given effect which is not exactly as the user wants." 

The second inference is the presence of other figures somehow detracts from the V things right to be the first choice, even when it doesn't quite fit. 

And yes, I did go look at the three images, however, one look was enough to say your interests are at a one eighty to mine, which makes any comments we have concerning what is desirable moot.  You may stay with V things, and it will have no effect on me any more than my going with the figures I already use, including Judy, will have on you.  I am not taking anything from the V thing in using something else, you and I have entirely different interests, and therefore, different vendors.  You continue to support the vendors you do, I'll continue to support PoserWorld.  You move on to the G thing, I'll move on to others that I can use.  Now, where is one detracting from the other? 

Quote - If you bother to go back and read your own words, from the beginning, you will see, not in the exact words, but your inference is "there  is no need for anything but the V thing in her many iterations, for every use, when all it takes is more money and many hours work to reach a given effect which is not exactly as the user wants." 

The second inference is the presence of other figures somehow detracts from the V things right to be the first choice, even when it doesn't quite fit. 

And yes, I did go look at the three images, however, one look was enough to say your interests are at a one eighty to mine, which makes any comments we have concerning what is desirable moot.  You may stay with V things, and it will have no effect on me any more than my going with the figures I already use, including Judy, will have on you.  I am not taking anything from the V thing in using something else, you and I have entirely different interests, and therefore, different vendors.  You continue to support the vendors you do, I'll continue to support PoserWorld.  You move on to the G thing, I'll move on to others that I can use.  Now, where is one detracting from the other? 

Actually from your inference you left out that he used Antonia and Anastasia as an example. Nowhere did he reference Victoria, because he said it would be blown out of proportion, which you still managed to do here. ;)

Beautiful, Raine.

Here's one I was playing with today with V4WM.

Thanks yours looks great as well

Gorgeous images, ladies!!

SSS really makes V4 pop and now that she will soon be available as a weight mapped version there is even more reason to keep on using her!

I agree, very nice:)

I think one problem we have here, and this is not aimed at any one person or group:

Person A says '4 = 2+2'

Person B says '4 = 2*2' or '5 = 6-1'

Person A says ' You are trying to bash/put down/stifle my choice etc.' 

If you look at what is being said objectively, that really doesn't happen that often. Expressing a different preference or view of the facts isn't , or shouldn't be ipso facto viewed as an attack or some kind of attempt at censorship. Too many of us (myself included) have become so reflexive that we assume the worst without making a serious enough effort to even listen to what the other person is saying. I've spent an hour on three paragraphs trying to second guess the many ways that someone might misinterpret what I was saying, sometimes to no avail. Too much reading between the lines to find what we expect or maybe want to be there when it isnt. These figures/programs/companies have become like proxies in some kind of bizarre, zero sum tribal warfare.You cvan ban politics and religion but we only find some other arena for combat.

Quote - No offense, but if that is true, then why was Daz asking forumites there to write a manual? I mean, couldn't they also hire the "best and brightest" to do that as well? I'm not being MEAN..I'm just ASKING! LOL Laurie

Lowest bidder. DAZ seems to be very much into capturing the lowest bidder.

Heck, I was good enough to write stuff for Autodesk, but DAZ wasn't interested. Go figure....  Then I had an offer that 'should I happen to write anything on my own, it would certainly be considered for inclusion'...  As if I should be happy to do it for the bragging rights.

Quote - I think one problem we have here, and this is not aimed at any one person or group:

Person A says '4 = 2+2'

Person B says '4 = 2*2' or '5 = 6-1'

Person A says ' You are trying to bash/put down/stifle my choice etc.'

Thad then there's Person C who sees the above exchange and says "EEEK! Math!!  you both are against me! :lol:

oh math.  remember quadratic equations?  slopes? y=mb something or other.  :lol:

Y=mX+C I believe but ICBW - I suck at maths

Quadratic needs a square = y = a * x^2 + b * x + c

EEEK MATH YOUR ALL AGAINST ME  :lol:

Quote - Quadratic needs a square = y = a * x^2 + b * x + c

Ran that as an isosurface in povray.  Doesn't compute.

Quote - > Quote - Quadratic needs a square = y = a * x^2 + b * x + c

Ran that as an isosurface in povray.  Doesn't compute.

Not surprising, as this is the equation of a 2d curve, which has no other dimension except length...

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Quadratic needs a square = y = a * x^2 + b * x + c

Ran that as an isosurface in povray.  Doesn't compute.

Not surprising, as this is the equation of a 2d curve, which has no other dimension except length...

Pov seems to do poorly with only one dimension. Looking for BlobMan Studio, know I've got it, just where ie is, still looking.  Hasn't been on line for quite a while, not in the POV object collection.  Hate it when I lose something in the morass of CD'z.

Penny, there is nothing funny about math.

On topic: V4WM pleases me! Anastasia(WM) pleases me! Antonia pleases me-if I want to render a woman who has average body fat. The overall proportions of V4 are not "average"-if they could be rescaled in any way without breaking the WM-then maybe I would only "need" V4. If I could easily and quickly modify the WM so she bends equally well with any body proportion then I could do with only V4. In one sense-I prefer V4 to Antonia because she has more polygons for morphing her face-in particular-but then V3's face seems more dense in polygons than V4's. Anyone who sees it from a different perspective- is WRONG! Just kidding!

IMcKenzie

You are WRONG!! The REAL answer is 4= (6 +4)- 6 you are clearly a bad person who hates little kittens-and dresses funny! :-)  KIDDING! But you have encapsulated my thoughts on the subject!

Quote - I think one problem we have here, and this is not aimed at any one person or group:

Person A says '4 = 2+2'

Person B says '4 = 2*2' or '5 = 6-1'

Person A says ' You are trying to bash/put down/stifle my choice etc.' 

If you look at what is being said objectively, that really doesn't happen that often. Expressing a different preference or view of the facts isn't , or shouldn't be ipso facto viewed as an attack or some kind of attempt at censorship. Too many of us (myself included) have become so reflexive that we assume the worst without making a serious enough effort to even listen to what the other person is saying. I've spent an hour on three paragraphs trying to second guess the many ways that someone might misinterpret what I was saying, sometimes to no avail. Too much reading between the lines to find what we expect or maybe want to be there when it isnt. These figures/programs/companies have become like proxies in some kind of bizarre, zero sum tribal warfare.You cvan ban politics and religion but we only find some other arena for combat.

Don't taze me bro!

I agree. I liked V3 face better but V4 can smile better.

As long as you AGREE that 4= (4+6)-6! :-)

Quote - Don't taze me bro!

 True- I'll have to check the wireframe- maybe a better polygon flow around the mouth?

Quote - I agree. I liked V3 face better but V4 can smile better.

Quote - As long as you AGREE that 4= (4+6)-6! :-)

Flawed concpet: You forgot to consider, Whose on First Base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng

 Hmmn. Nope! Cause: I don't know is on second!

IF 4= (4+6)-6 THEN 6= (4+6)-4 AND 4-4= 0! See V4 is still better than any other character except Antonia-who is better than Dina V (2000ish) but not as good as Posette- except on alternate Fridays! Unless of course I'm wrong! :-)

If you know who is NOT on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th- it helps! V4 is on first?

Quote - > Quote - As long as you AGREE that 4= (4+6)-6! :-)

Flawed concpet: You forgot to consider, Whose on First Base.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng

Anyone need an engineer?

Quote - Anyone need an engineer?

Why?  The train is way off the track as it is... :lol:

Theorem: x = y for any x and y.

Proof:

multiply both sides by 0

x * 0 = 0, y * 0 = 0

using the identify x = x

0 = 0

QED.

As a consequence, 4 = 6.

Bye!!!

Quote - > Quote - Anyone need an engineer?

Why?  The train is way off the track as it is... :lol:

Ain't that the truth!!!!!!!

 My brain hurts! :-) Does this mean V4 is no longer in jail?

Quote - Theorem: x = y for any x and y.

Proof:

multiply both sides by 0

x * 0 = 0, y * 0 = 0

using the identify x = x

0 = 0

QED.

As a consequence, 4 = 6.

Bye!!!

Quote - As a consequence, 4 = 6.

Only for sufficiently large values of 4. ;)

Quote - V4WM

My birthday is next Thursday. V4WM would be a very cool present. But to be honest it won't bother me in the slightest if V4WM is released before next Thursday:laugh:

Is that Nerd's version or is there another?

Quote - Is that Nerd's version or is there another?

No, this is the phantom3D, CageDrei version at Poser Place: http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/

Hope someone will announce it in a thread here when V$WM is ready. Nerd's is a major step forward, but this sounds like a far larger step from what I read there.