This might seem very, very OT to those who haven't upgraded to the latest flavours of Poser, but the money I've saved not buying stuff at either here or Daz or elsewhere has allowed me to be in the market for either a Samsung Galaxy Tab (10.1 in, 32 gig, WiFi) or the Asus Transformer Prime (10.1 in, 32gig, WiFi). Such was the nature of my spending here and elsewhere. And much as I'd like to support our vendors, until they start producing for Poser 9 / PP 2012, I'm pretty much not interested. The rest is same-ol', same-ol'...

Can anyone point me to a V4-WM product anywhere that takes full advantage of weight-mapping? as in: weight-mapped clothing for a weight-mapped figure? ?

IOW: what do we need to do to start making Poser 9 / PP2012 really start happening?

Meant to add: I've already purchased some of those products that take advantage of the new Poser functionality, like Danae's Dublin and Blackhearted's Anastasia... but there's so much out there for V4 still being produced purely for the non-weightmapped V4.

Why?

Don't people know V4-WM is out there (and been there for a while now??)... and what about PoserPlace Outfitter? These are incredible products, HUGE opportunities for vendors... no one knows about them?

Why?

Quote - Meant to add: I've already purchased some of those products that take advantage of the new Poser functionality, like Danae's Dublin and Blackhearted's Anastasia... but there's so much out there for V4 still being produced purely for the non-weightmapped V4.

Why?

Don't people know V4-WM is out there (and been there for a while now??)... and what about PoserPlace Outfitter? These are incredible products, HUGE opportunities for vendors... no one knows about them?

Why?

Because one has to market it.

I don't care if it's free, if you don't market it, people de-value it.

If YOU believe it doesn't have enough value to market, neither does your user base.

Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.

I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.

Quote - Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.

I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.

It boils down to the value the creator places on it.

If the creator can't be bothered with anything but "plop, here it is" then, she/he places no value on it, so why would the user?

Marketing is FAR more than a newsletter.  It's about maintaining GOOD relationships with your supporters, your cheerleaders and NEW and important outlets.

You must ALWAYS be looking for marketing opportunities.

Quote - It boils down to the value the creator places on it. If the creator can't be bothered with anything but "plop, here it is" then, she/he places no value on it, so why would the user?

Marketing is FAR more than a newsletter.  It's about maintaining GOOD relationships with your supporters, your cheerleaders and NEW and important outlets.

You must ALWAYS be looking for marketing opportunities.

You're right: it's just that I tend look beyond the creator's abilitites in marketing (who may or may not have good marketing sense) to the value of the product itself. That's what got the Antonia Polygon ball rolling for me. ODF was finished with his bit, but the marketing was still left to do. Whether we did a good job with it remains to be seen: I'm a nurse, not a marketing person.

These are amazing products. They deserve a lot more attention than they are getting. Yes, marketing is at fault. And that is going to be addressed now.

Thanks for your ideas, Traci. Will endeavour to address them straight-away.

Quote -
IOW: what do we need to do to start making Poser 9 / PP2012 really start happening?

Weight mapped breast handles?  Weight mapped temples?  Weight mapped swords?

My mind in the gutter aside I would like to think that:

1.  V4-WM is still pretty new.  I haven't even bothered to get it yet.  So the number of people to want items for it might be limited.

1. Gene is stealing some of the WM-thunder and some vendors are already supporting two products, now you are asking them to support 3.  Plus if you add handles to clothing, they'd need to be done right as well.  Eventually they'll have to start charging more and products are expensive enough as it is.  Esp if you also buy non-poser stuff with your limited disposable income (the USD has lost 20% of its value in the last decade). 

3.  It's not backwards compatible to previous versions.  Not everyone uses PP12 so you'd limit your customer base. 

4.  People are lazy and won't do extra work if they don't think it's worth their time and/or effort.  Plus it's a new skillset to practice, learn, and get comfortable with.  If I were selling something, I'd want it to be right enough that I wouldn't feel bad if someone bought the item (I've got a perpetual WIP dress, just ask the chat regulars).  They also might have deadlines or a certain amount of time they want to work on a single product and this new feature might either take too long to add or make them release things slower than they'd like.

5.  Some people prefer dynamics, which don't really care about WMed V4.

6.  There is no 6.

7.  You never expect the spanish inquisition!

8.  I forgot to mention he fact we are waiting for V4-WMed now with Jiggle Handles!

Also, what about WMed hair sets?  Some hairs are figures and not props.

Quote - Also, what about WMed hair sets?  Some hairs are figures and not props.

Copy Joint Zones From...

Thanks for your other points, WC: all challenges to overcome.

So I guess from a vendor standpoint some possible concerns are:

1. How big is the poser9/2012 market ?  and how much lift will the sales get from including a WM option?

2. How much extra time will it take to not just convert the item to WM but to do it to a high enough standard.  How much of a learning curve is there to feel 'in control' of the results.

I think some of these are unknowns to a lot of vendors and users alike.  There is also the 'V4 already had one or two or several of everything' problem that I think is already limiting production of new items for her so it will also limit support for WM until the WM market is big enough to bring in the cash flow on its own.

For myself I'm 'on my way' to becoming a vendor or at least a freebie contributor and it is my intention to put out only poser 9+ content

Does there need to be a bigger effort to demonstrate how V4WM or Antonia WM + Outfitter can fit into a content creation workflow to make adding WM support to forthcoming sets easier, and therefore a more attractive option from a 'hours spent' vs 'sales gained' point of view

Quote - Does there need to be a bigger effort to demonstrate how V4WM or Antonia WM + Outfitter can fit into a content creation workflow to make adding WM support to forthcoming sets easier, and therefore a more attractive option from a 'hours spent' vs 'sales gained' point of view

Excellent point! A video! The process to convert existing clothing to WM using Poser-Place Outfitter takes literally seconds. Once you've made your clothing item, adding wm capability is a matter of another minute or two, not hours of work. And now you've captured the new Poser users market.

And you bring up another concept: vendor support needs to be a lot more visible, available, accessible.

OT reply to an OT subject

wait till you see what happens to antonia next...

thats not a threat is it? 

Quote - OT reply to an OT subject

wait till you see what happens to antonia next...

 

Robyn, I feel your pain.

Still, I think we need to put what has happened into perspective to really understand why things have played out as they have.

The early adopters are always about a year ahead of the great unwashed masses for any product/technology/whatever. The disappointment with Genesis did, indeed, prod a lot of people to action. The problem was, none of them had a clear plan of what to do or how to do it.

While a lack of marketing is certainly part of the situation, I don't think that can explain everything.

Antonia - I know you love her, Robyn, but I'm with the group that does not. I think, at the heart of the problem is the lack of an "official" morph set for her that vendors can use as their base is a deal breaker. I've posted before, the main morph set out there does not create the sort of changes I want in a character, so for me, she's not going to work. There are very few characters/textures out there for her, and many of us do not have the time/patience/abilities to create our own from scratch.

GND Anastasia is a beautiful figure that has actually proven someone with real skills can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. However, since her initial release she has gone "THUD" due to lack of any of the promised products appearing for her. I'm not into girls wearing leather bras.

My own finger of blame for the above failures points at the WM version of V4. To me, this was the game changer. A figure for which I already had everything I needed has arrived with improved performance, and the need for me to buy absolutely NOTHING to make her ready to produce images today is just too seductive! Let's be frank... in the contest between the three figures, I can understand why the first two have been dropped like hot potatoes. No support, no support, vs no support needed!

And as far as new products for V4-WM... just what is it you are wanting? What can be done in clothing that the Outfitter program does not do to existing clothing? This, to me, was the beauty of the project: to make a popular figure into her own successor, thus saving the costs of having to re-tool. Somehow I don't think a new weight mapped bra is going to behave better than a converted one. Perhaps I am wrong, but someone is going to have to post some images that clearly demonstrate the difference to me.

While I would still support Antonia (if the mess with lack of standards and the lack of meaningful content for her can be cleared up,) I don't see much more being done with her. The development team has bled their souls into her, and no one else seems interested. It's sad, but that is how it appears to me.

I will support GND because I think she is a viable character. But again, the stuff to make her work has to be there. For me, both Antonia and GND have missed their windows of opportunity in terms of being "the next great figure." V4-WM is already there. I don't think you can equate a lack of new products for the WM version with a lack of acceptance. I have no idea how many times the WM kit has been downloaded for Poser Place, but I'm willing to bet it is a significant number.

Finally, as to creating products that exploit Poser 9/PP2012's abilities, it might interest you to know that I've got a male character ready for market that will be P9/2012 ONLY! The shaders have GC and SSS built in, and the creating involved scaling (which finally works right!) It takes a while for content creators to learn the ropes of the new technologies, and yes... it's been about a year for me to get my head around enough things to be able to do what I've finally done. (You were very kind in your comments about him when I posted my WIP thread a few days back.) He is truly a P9/PP2012 character from the ground up.

Patience. The genie is out of the bottle. It takes time to formulate wishes that will be really productive.

Please don't take anything I've said as being dismissive of the work people have put into these projects. I think it is just a shame the way the timing for the various projects has played out.

$.02

Quote - OT reply to an OT subject

wait till you see what happens to antonia next...

 

Sounds interesting.

My comments - probably a bit inflammatory, now that I think on it - were based on going through the marketplace and seeing so little apparent interest by vendors in what the new figures have to offer. true, Antonia is not everyone's cup of tea: I prefer real to barbie-doll, but that doesn't make my choice (or perception of real vs barbie-doll, for that matter) any more or less valid than anyone else's.

But my remarks were about V4-Wm and Outfitter, really.

When Gene came out, there seemed to be a great deal of indecision and unrest and uncertainty and subsequent inactivity amongst Poser vendors in general. people changed camps, loyalties were challenged: it was quite tumultuous. Now, I'm getting this great sense of apathy.

V4-Wm and Outfitter really aren't that hard to use. Quick and easy, and you have superior results.

So, i still don't get it. Wark, you haven't bothered to even download it. Why? I'm not accusing you or anything: just trying to figure out what was the lack of appeal.

Antonia is beau-tee-full if you rip off the texture and look at her from a mesh/rigging perspective ,she has just the right  balance of form and function with plenty of room for expansion... we cant all expect her to come out of the can being everything we ever wanted, we all have different taste's...shes a platform that can be shaped into anything you ever dreamed of....

"its better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness":have no idea who said that but ill just throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks...

:O)

Quote - I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.

Lord no! They'll probably have to pry Wings out of my cold, dead hands...lol. Same with Blender. And Inkscape. And Scribus....

Some of my favorite programs are free, open source. Right now I'm setting up XBMC (also free) on my spare computer and make mysef a nice media center. Priceless ;).

I really don't think I wanna part with my copy of EZ Skin or Pose2Lux :P

Laurie

I tried V4-WM. It was a huge improvement over V4 in many ways, and in some ways, not so much.

The recent addition of a batch of V4 improving morphs has made the the non-weight-mapped V4 quite a viable contender. Bends are vastly better, and there's no need to convert clothing.

V4-WM, unfortunately, came out about a month or so too late (after all those lovely V4 fixes). Plus the added step of converting the few conformers I do use makes me less inclined to try. I'd use her, but I'd still have to fix up her some of her joints in post or with morphs. So why bother?

Edit to add:

I guess my point is that I don't think my apathy is uncommon among buyers in the marketplace. And if vendors do not detect an enthusiastic market, they're not going to invest the time into making products for it.

Quote - V4-WM, unfortunately, came out about a month or so too late (after all those lovely V4 fixes). Plus the added step of converting the few conformers I do use makes me less inclined to try. I'd use her, but I'd still have to fix up her some of her joints in post or with morphs. So why bother?

Which joints?

Just give it time RV, only guessing but I think the number of people who have pro/12 is quite small, but it will grow and so will the demand

I guess I'm impatient, Hedd... this is a software-dependent product, so it only seems reasonable that the number of people jumping on this is going to be based on P9/PP2012 sales.

1. Elbows

V4-WM on the left in this case. The elbwo lacks an olecranon, a "funny bone" as it were, and instead looks like a bent swimming pool noodle. V4's arms are barely long enough as it is, but V4-WM's upper arms are quite a bit shorter.

1. The neck bends with a very large bulge. You can also see how shorter the upper arms are, and how the elbow lacks its characteristic bony protusion.

True enough, the armpits and shoulders are much improved, as are the hips. The neck bend in the crease of the bend on the left side (on the model on the right) is far better, but the big bulge is strange. The knees are better in some respects, worse in others.

In short, better is some ways, worse in others. Still needs to be fixed in post or via morphs. Hence, may not be worth the effort if clothes have to be converted. Depends on which problems bug you and which don't, I guess.

You work with the mesh you're given. People chose V4 as their favourite girl. Unfortunately, her mesh is not that great. Poser Place tried to make the V4-affectionados happy: in hindsight, this talent would have been better spent on a mesh that actually bent well.

Can't make everyone happy... people are always going to find something.

So, the reason - according to you, then, Moriador - for this V4-WM version not taking off is because of the issues you've raised?

I'd say this version may not be taking off because it's not close enough to perfect.

In the context of a whole bunch of products, such as the V4 perfect line, being released which address a number of the most obvious issues with V4, the improvements that V4-WM provide may not be enough of an improvement for people to make the switch.

I'm sorry that I don't find V4-WM to be the perfect solution and that you feel that the time spent on the project "would have been better spent on a mesh that actually bent well," though, to be sure, you could be right. Depends on what you mean by "better spent." 

Antonia is no doubt a better mesh, (though, I think she may have the same elbow issues as V4-WM) but I don't like the morphs that are available for her, so I'm waiting to see if ones which are more suitable to my taste appear or not. I'm not passing judgment, and I mean nothing personal. It's just how it is.

Just to add, as others have already no doubt suggested, it's more likely that a whole bunch of products that use weight mapping and SSS and other advancements that can be used only in P9 and PP2012 are not appearing in the MP because relatively few people have upgraded to this software.

By"better spent" I meant: the rigger who fought with this impossible mesh could have been working on something that would have advanced his own projects instead of giving of his time and talent to create a re-rigged, weight-mapped figure mod to offer to the community for free, a community who were begging for this figure and now seem apathetic about her. And critiques like yours would have been much more useful during the debugging phase of this project. None of us on the project ever thought to contort V4 into that particular position. I would have never thought that particular pose was so popular or so critical to success.

Have you logged a bug report about this issue at Poser Place?

As previously mentioned, the team had to work with a mesh that was not of our making, plus there was a hell of a lot of restrictions put on it from DAZ.

Things that could have been done were not allowed due to those restrictions.

Just because there are not mass amounts of renders does not mean that there are not a lot of users using V4WM.

If htere was no interest etc. in WM'd characters, then why would people be asking for M4 to be WM'd and is in production at PP.

It's obvious that WM is not backwards compatible, so that one is not relavent.

Give people time and things will appear, I know of certain things, but cannot say due to Non Disclosure.

All the best.

LROG

V4WM and the outfitter are excellent. I now use the weightmapped version all the time and pokethrough is minimal, not more as standard clothing in extreme bends and in some cases even less. I really like the way the outfitter does entire folders in one go and the speed in which it does it is remarkable (an entier folder of Alfaseed outfit in less than 2 minutes).

I can easily use V4WM all the time now without risk. Even if something does not work, I can always fall back to the original for that particular item or pose.

One thing is not clear to me yet - if content makers use the outfitter tool too copy the weightmap to their own clothing and then make it a perfect fitting - Can they distribute it along with their clothing. Or is the result contain copythighted material which they cannot distribute?

I guess i sort-of opened the question to all, and thus invited comments like the above.

The problem, as I see it, is that it is a no-cost item. If it were in the marketplace, there wouldn't be much of a place to whinge about it: that feedback thing on the product display page is much less revelatory than a forum.

Quote - One thing is not clear to me yet - if content makers use the outfitter tool to copy the weightmap to their own clothing and then make it a perfect fitting - can they distribute it along with their clothing. Or is the result contain copythighted material which they cannot distribute?

That is the idea: this is a product for content makers as well as end-users. This way, the content maker - whilst designing clothing, say, for V4.2 (non-WM) can include a fit for the V4-WM figure, which would increase her market potential, I should think. And the process takes - as you know - seriously 2 minutes to accomplish. Why wouldn't a vendor do this?

Robyn - you DO know that it (outfitter) has been out for only 2 weeks?

How long is the pipeline for running the script, adjusting the weightmaps, getting it tested, submitting it to the store and getting it tested and accepted?

Quote - Robyn - you DO know that it (outfitter) has been out for only 2 weeks?

How long is the pipeline for running the script, adjusting the weightmaps, getting it tested, submitting it to the store and getting it tested and accepted?

Fair enough, Wim... as I told Hedd: I'm terribly impatient. :blink: Might just pull my head back in, then...

Lots of people don't mention WW2, XD etc. every day, but again it does not mean that they are not using those items on a daily basis.

It's like sending a mailer out through the normal post. You send out 1,000 posts, if you get a response of 4% then you are doing well.

So, no need to pull your head in at all.

All the best.

LROG

It's not by any mistake I'm a nurse... hence the unrealistic expectations.

Don't mind me... thanks to all for your enlightening comments and suggestions.

I actually see that V4-WM is being used quite a lot around the various galleries I frequent.  Most don't publicize it though.  But it's pretty easy to spot in some renders.  

I use her exclusively now, and am making some hi-rez/hi-density dynamic hair styles that I was hoping might draw some attention to her if peeps over at Poser Place have an interest.  they will be usable on V4 just the same, but I figure promoting it for the WM version and stating that it is 'compatable' with standard would work well.  ;)

Shvrdavid made some nice Skull caps for V4, and am having a blast with them so far.  Hoping to have the first hair done this week.

IMHO it's because she isn't an 'official' DAZ version, many users have been 'brain washed' into only using DAZ figures, so most of them wont touch a 'rehash' done by a 3rd party. Take Genesis as an example, here we have a DAZ figure that only works in DS4, the out cry from the Poser users completely caught out DAZ, their 'brain washed' masses wanted the new figure but wouldn't 'jump ship' to use it, so DAZ had to backtrack and came up with the cr2 exporter.

Then there's those of us that don't have P9 and aren't likely to get it any time soon, the whole WM & SSS thing is pointless when your still using P6.

The CR2 exporter is not going any further. DAZ wants SMSI to rewite its software and SMSI does not want to get locked into DAZ technology.

So no genesis for Poser.

V4WM does not require any investment at all - no new clothing, hair or poses. Just run a script and you can use what you already have. There is no jumping ship involved.

But you are right in that it is only usable in P9 and PP2012. So a good reason to spend the money on P9 instead of genesis

And ? Arent we forgetting saturation?

When a lot of new figures are released in a very short time?

Content creators/vendors tend to stick to "what sells" untill a new figure starts getting them the same return as the older figures.

As long as the content for older figures sells?
We might see no content created untill a new figure comes to blow the  older ones out of the sky.

And?? That did not happen yet.

V4 is still very firmly seated on her throne. LOL.
Some moons high above the nearest competition.

"Newer" figures might be better?? Oh yes.

But they do not bring the financial return yet.

Too many new in too short a time.
No time to build a reputation.

it is GOOD to have so many new figures.
But it reduces their individual chance to build a customer base around and to survive.

There are two breeds of vendors, the 'character makers' and the 'cloth makers' and never the two shall meet. If V4-WM shall lift depend upon the first ones. Until there are new, wonderfully beautiful and haunting "Vera" or "Alexis" that uses features only found in Poser9/2012 not much will happen. Sure cloth vendors can include a WM version but up till now I always thought that the outfitter was a tool for the end user! Vendors usually include a lot of poses and materials the runtimes would look pretty cluttered and bloated with one more version of everything.

Poses and materials are identical. Only a new version of the CR2 is needed

Poses and materials are not identical. Using poses for materials is just a bad practice. Many things are different in Poser9/2012, not only weight mapping.

Poses for V4 and V4Wm have slight variations. We found that out in testing. Its just a matter of a little dial moving and then save a V4WM version of the pose.

As mentioned, V4WM needs no other investment than having Poser 9Poser Pro 2012 and V4.2.

Yep, I know Poser 9PP2012 costs a bit but the people moving forward with WM'ing are working with the software that does the job.

So, if you do have Poser9Pro 2012 and V4, you can easily convert her to V4WM and convert her clothes via Outfitter.

It takes very little time to do so and is an amazing piece of work.

All the best.

LROG

Deja Vu. Working with web development we always wanted the customer to embrace the latest browsers and the latest browsers only. But the annoying customers always insisted compatibility with old browsers forcing us to work with old technology..grr :(

 "If it wasn't for the customers we could have had a very nice business!"

I really think that Smith Micro needs to create a content creation division to provide new content for Poser 9/2012 in the same way e-Frontier really tried to do something different with Content Paradise and introduced the G2 series, a platinum like club, weekly freebies, and lots of new outfits for the G2s.  I read on Runtime DNA they are reaching out to content creators to make a new, attractive weight mapped male figure.  The problem with the G2s and the other content that was created for eFrontier is that there was just something a little off about them and they did have wide appeal; they dissapeared into an ocean of Vickies and Mikes.   At least James was decent looking, I think Ryan is hideous.

I'm looking forward to Sixus Humanz line that will be coming out.  They've promised not only attractive human figures, but clothings and accessories for them.

Quote - Poses and materials are not identical. Using poses for materials is just a bad practice. Many things are different in Poser9/2012, not only weight mapping.

Who is talking about MAT files?

The poses for V4 work for V4WM pretty good - not always perfect, but if you change any scaling on a default V4 figure you have the same thing. Easy to correct

Material files (MAT and MC) are identical between V4 and V4WM

P8 materials can be used without problem in P8 and PP2012. Has nothing to do with V4WM

I really liked the Perfect morphs before I had V4WM (I have the Booty and Thigh fixes) but I disagree that these are in any way better then V4WM.  

First off the setup is more complicated. You need to run a script that creates a new figure then you need to load that figure before finally applying the fix morphs in correct order.  What you're left with is a very resource heavy figure with tons and tons of morphs.

Then there's the fact that your clothing won't have these morphs so you either need to have a 3rd party app to transfer these morphs (making the clothing heavier) or you need to fix the clothing with the morph brush in every single pose.  You could of course hide the geometry that's beneath the clothing but you'll be left with badly bending clothes.

The Perfect morphes are good for those who don't have weight mapping IMO, not for those of us who do.  I'm sure the community can come up with an elbow fix if needed.

In the image above you can see V4WM on the left (front) and Perfect V4 on the right (back).  The Jeans on V4WM have only been converted with the Outfitter.  There are no extra fixes or hidden geometry. Perfect V4 has the original jeans...

And SSS?

Quote - And SSS?

P8 material files have no SSS. So these will work in both P8 and P9

Quote - Point well taken. V4-Wm and PP Outfitter did get a lot of support in that regard from RDNA: they gave it proper product status and newsletter support so DNA customers did see that and are happily using it, I'm assuming.

I'm wondering if people who accustomed to buying (and selling) products assume because something is no-cost, it must be of no value.

I go by the reputation of the crafter, not by price.

I think it may be more of a learning curve thing.  Afters years of studying V4 and M4, practicing, and asking questions;

this new WM transferring stuff is still so mysterious.