Brad disappeared off the face of the earth I think.

And tony became a tutorial.

M4 has not been weightmapped yet.

Tate has not posted any new pics of michelle in some time (oh she's not male - sorry)

Love esther

I agree that Poser being just a cog in the SM wheel (which I promise not to put Vickie on again), the idea of a content creation arm somewhat unlikely. It’s too bad Poser/CL isn’t still independent but that train left the station long ago. As to how important it might be, that depends. One thing is certain. If SM declined to join the Genesis ecosystem in order to be masters of their own destiny, then they have to deal with content one way or another. They can either double down on the current strategy or do something different. It sounds like they are developing some new figures – exactly what they need to do. IMO, they might be better served by going with a distinct figure arm as a long term investment in Poser’s future. I think it’s still about content. There are lots of folks here who develop their own stuff and/or customize the heck out of existing stuff. TO reiterate my standard spiel, there are a lot more folks who just buy stuff – enough to have made DAZ successful. Poser needs a steady stream of those people. I don’t say that SM is on the verge of pulling up their pants and going home or that DAZ will be triumphant, but I really want both of them to succeed.

Someone mentioned the website. I don’t even know what it looks like today. It was so lame that I stopped going there even for free content. Some may think the DAZ marketing approach is tacky or whatever, but IMO, it’s a lot more appealing to the average punter. That, I think, is key. For the person who doesn’t think that Vickie’s bending is a blot on the world, those who can’t even lathe model a dildo (hey, she asked, I obeyed), yada, yada, slick marketing is a big deal. You have to appeal to everyone. I hope they get that. The absence of a third legitimate competitor after all these years says to me that the market isn’t big enough for half measures. I know that many people believe that Poser is well rid of DAZ, and that it will be just fine with a mix of independent figures and whatever SM comes up with doing things the way they have. I’m just not so sure.

I'd be hopeful that SM's intentions and strategy regarding Poser are good.

ThinkCooper seems to have made it clear they are working on putting out new figure content soon.

At the same time, the optional inclusion of online Renderosity content in the Library search results, with Poser SR2, suggests they are also keen to support the third party market place ongoing.

I think that should be a good thing for folk like ExistentialDisorder, or adh3d or the creator of the new female figure, Bella... who are developing their own figure solutions.

Certainly all steps in the right direction, I think.

;-)

As far as I know the work on M4 is ongoing.  Things have taken a bit of a slower turn lately, but I hope will pick up again soon.  I'm not sure what it is about march and april but it seemed like a lot of people got real busy with stuff outside the 3d world

Quote - As far as I know the work on M4 is ongoing.  Things have taken a bit of a slower turn lately, but I hope will pick up again soon.  I'm not sure what it is about march and april but it seemed like a lot of people got real busy with stuff outside the 3d world

Last public update I saw on that from Phantom3d, M4WM was looking very nice indeed.

Of course these things take time to do well... especially when its being done on a philanthropic basis.... and must be balanced with other life and work. I'd definitely rather wait a bit longer, for a better result.

:-)

I really do wish that threads like this could stay on track and not go over the endless Daz/Poser debate that proves nothing.  I know one answer is not to read the threads, which is easy when the name of the thread makes it clear that it is just another flame war in the making. However, with threads like this it is diffiicult as there is otherwise interesting information but it is a real pain to filter out the good from the bad. 

As soon as I see words like Daz, Poser and strategy in the same sentence it creates different words in my mind like Horse, dead and flogging.

Cringe... apologies for my own use of the word "strategy" there Hornet... just re-read that post of mine. LOL.

I really shouldn't post in tandem with dealing with my work email. 

I was actually trying to keep the thread on track there ;-)

Quote - Cringe... apologies for my own use of the word "strategy" there Hornet... just re-read that post of mine. LOL.

I really shouldn't post in tandem with dealing with my work email. 

I was actually trying to keep the thread on track there ;-)

No need to apologise and sorry if you thought this was aimed at you, it was not (I should have chosen my words a little more carefully as well, but I get annoyed with the endless repition of the same argument which will not convince either camp. Your post was on track, was related to Poser and possible new figures.  Your use of strategy was also cleary about Poser which is what you would expect on a Poser forum.  My comment was aimed at the "Lets relate this to Daz and have another go" and, unsurprisingly, the same names keep popping up.

Anyway moving back on track I am keen to see any new figures, either male or female, but particlarly male as want a companion for V4WM.  My only worry is, while a near perfect figure may be of interest to the users that read and post on these threads I am not sure how much the demand is in the wider 3D world.  A Look at the galleries tend to suggest it is maybe not be that strong but then only a small minority upload to the galleries which again makes it impossible to draw any real conclusions.  It matters of course because the real level of demand will be of interest to any vendor supporting any new figure

alert Will Robinson

Jepes Nash for Simon G2 P7  is in clearance.  if you don't have him, hurry before it's too late.

iirc, there were xtra head morph dials with the inj set.

remember David 3's poseable anus thread?  tee hee. 

sorry, it gave me giggle fits everytime it floated to the top of the forum, not cuz it wasn't a serious and interesting topic, but because of all the wisecracks replies

That was an oldie, but goodie--I wish Jepe had done more for the Gs.

Thank you for the heads-up on Nash MistyLara, I didn't have him, and now I do.

Quote - alert Will Robinson

Jepes Nash for Simon G2 P7  is in clearance.  if you don't have him, hurry before it's too late.

iirc, there were xtra head morph dials with the inj set.

 

Great character set for a figure that doen't have much, pay atention to the fantastic displacement map that can be used with other textures.

 

Well if anyone else finds anything interesting or any compelling male add-ons please feel free to post them here.  I personally think Rikishi is a great figure--if you want a fat male figure that 's realistic looking.   He also has two alternative character sets.

He makes a pretty decent Santa Claus too!

not bad, but now I have PP 2012 I want weight mapped figures.

Love esther

Quote - not bad, but now I have PP 2012 I want weight mapped figures.

Love esther

Nothing's stopping you from converting him.

actually there is.  Phantom said that although you can just swap to weight mapping no advantage is conferred until the zones are tweaked etc, and I couldn't do that in a million years.  also I want the clothes to be compatible and preferably made for the figure, so I would like (not demanding, just stating my preference) that the figure be the same one we are all using.

Love esther

I think from what I've been reading that the new figures designed for Poser (when they come out) will be weight mapped for Poser.  Miki 4 is supposed to be the same mesh but weight mapped.  Aren't Alyson and Ryan 2 weight mapped?  Not that anyone will want ot use them--but I think they are.

Quote - I think from what I've been reading that the new figures designed for Poser (when they come out) will be weight mapped for Poser.  Miki 4 is supposed to be the same mesh but weight mapped.  Aren't Alyson and Ryan 2 weight mapped?  Not that anyone will want ot use them--but I think they are.

They are ;)

I think, when new functionalities are introduced, like weight mapping, it takes the Poser community 3 or 4 versions of Poser to warm up to it...lol.

Seriously tho, I think if it's seamless - like a new figure is weight mapped and has no other version, its clothes are weight mapped, etc, then it will be easier to take than having a standard rigged figure, weight map it and then have to adjust every single one of it's clothes. If that makes sense ;). The path of least resistance :P

I think only a few will use Alyson and Ryan as they are as they look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick...lol.

Laurie

Jepe did a new character for one of the G2 figures and got the ugly look out fairly well.  so there is hope.

Just curious. 

Does anyone know who made Alyson and Ryan? 

For that matter, does anyone know who made any of the poser natives, (other than those made by zygote) ?

~Shane

Quote - actually there is.  Phantom said that although you can just swap to weight mapping no advantage is conferred until the zones are tweaked etc, and I couldn't do that in a million years.  also I want the clothes to be compatible and preferably made for the figure, so I would like (not demanding, just stating my preference) that the figure be the same one we are all using.

Love esther

No offense Esther, but that's a bit disengenuous. You could do it if you were willing to learn the process from those who are teaching it over at Poser Place, you just choose not to. Not that I blame you! It is a very technical and time consuming proposal that not everyone will want to learn, but they can if they choose to.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot in particular, but ANYONE can learn to do the conversions if they want to take the time and put in the effort. Like any of the technical aspects of Poser, it takes time, patience and effort to learn the intricacies involved. Those who learn will be better for it.

Quote - I think only a few will use Alyson and Ryan as they are as they look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick...lol.

And that's another piss poor excuse for not putting in the work to make the figures look better. It's been proven time and time again that the default looks of figures can and are improved with the right amount of effort and time put into morphing, texturing and posing them.

I think Teyon.

I thought they were morphs off of James and Jesse that just progressively more ugly with each subsequent generation.  First we had James, who was oaky looking, then Simon, and now Ryan--they all look like they have the same bodies to me, but just different heads.  I may be totally wrong about this--but that's my perception of them.

Up to generation 5, I think Zygote/Daz made all the native Poser people.  I think that Don was a spin off of M2--he could  use the same texture maps, except the face doesn't map quite right.  It was after Poser 5 that Poser's owners had the big falling out with Daz over the introduction of Daz Studio.  Things were never quite the same after that.  For the record I think that Don and Judy are very nice figures who never had vendor support for stuff for them.  The G2s were the only Poser native figures that there was a big push to create content for with a Platinum Club like membership available at Content Paradise at the time.

I don't think they have the same mesh. 

I don't see any resemblance at all between james and ryan. not even cousins. lol. 

I'd have to look at their meshes again tho.

I know nothing about the modeling end of it, I'm sure you could tell Shane and I will humbly stand corrected.  I've never seen men with such spindly little wrists and deformed shoulders in my life.

Quote - I think Teyon.

I think Teyon did Miki 3, not the Poser figures.

Laurie

lol

a while back i was going to do a comparison chart sort of thing to post here about the anatomical correctness of the various poser figures and an ecorche. i started it, but just never developed it very much beyond the height chart. 

~Shane

Quote - I think only a few will use Alyson and Ryan as they are as they look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick...lol.

And that's another piss poor excuse for not putting in the work to make the figures look better. It's been proven time and time again that the default looks of figures can and are improved with the right amount of effort and time put into morphing, texturing and posing them.

My piss poor excuse is that if they don't even look human from the outset, I'm not going to bother with them further. Why spend weeks changing a figure no one's gonna use but me? I don't think so. Some will. Like Joe Public, who definitely has the skill to do so. But not me. Hell, even Joe Public hasn't really touched the newer Poser figtures that I'm aware. I'll be waiting to see your improvement on the two ;). I think the only reason Gabe bothered with Alyson was just to see if he could make something decent out of something so homely. He most certainly has the skill. I don't have the patience or the inclination to move EVERY single vertex in the mesh.

Laurie

most any human shaped base mesh can be modified to look just about any way you want it to, provided there is enough geometry to work with, which there is in all the poser figures. the level of attractiveness is only determined by the skill and time dedication of the artist.

I'm sure Gabe is a confident enough artist to know before he even started, that he could make Alyson look great, it was just a matter of whether he wanted to bother with it or not. Which obviously, he wanted to. 

I could have pulled Lucas out of Ryan's mesh, and he would already be done and available for everyone to use. I chose not to because it's not my mesh and I just don't want to waste my time working on someone else's mesh that I can't modify to my liking. I have plans for Lucas beyond this innitial stage that I can't do with someone else's mesh because I don't have the licensing it would require.   

~Shane

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I think only a few will use Alyson and Ryan as they are as they look like they've been beaten with an ugly stick...lol.

And that's another piss poor excuse for not putting in the work to make the figures look better. It's been proven time and time again that the default looks of figures can and are improved with the right amount of effort and time put into morphing, texturing and posing them.

My piss poor excuse is that if they don't even look human from the outset, I'm not going to bother with them further. Why spend weeks changing a figure no one's gonna use but me? I don't think so. Some will. Like Joe Public, who definitely has the skill to do so. But not me. Hell, even Joe Public hasn't really touched the newer Poser figtures that I'm aware. I'll be waiting to see your improvement on the two ;)

I no longer care enough to put in the effort. I'm just tired of seeing the same excuse being played out over and over again. Whenever people aren't willing to put any effort into a figure they claim the figure was "beaten with an ugly stick".

Judy became Eternal Judy, Ten Ten and several other popular characters, Jessi became Glamerous Jessi and Alyson became Anastasia. How much more proof does one need before they stop using the ugly stick an excuse?   Maybe not you personally Laurie  but "you" in general to everyone who's ever carted out that excuse as to why they don't work with the Poser native figures. Regardless, as excuses go, it's no better or worse than any other but it's still just an excuse not to try.

Quote - most any human shaped base mesh can be modified to look just about any way you want it to, provided there is enough geometry to work with, which there is in all the poser figures. the level of attractiveness is only determined by the skill and time dedication of the artist.

That's my point!

Quote - I could have pulled Lucas out of Ryan's mesh, and he would already be done and available for everyone to use. I chose not to because it's not my mesh and I just don't want to waste my time working on someone else's mesh that I can't modify to my liking. I have plans for Lucas beyond this innitial stage that I can't do with someone else's mesh because I don't have the licensing it would require.     ~Shane

And there's nothing wrong with that at all! At least you're not making excuses because you're too lazy to put in some effort at the job.

Quote - I have found that the best use of Ryan is to forget about making him look handsome or even average. So I age him using the face room and his built-in morphs, and use him as a "character actor" rather than a "romantic lead". The same goes for Alyson.

That's some fantastic work there Nannette! And makes my point most eloquently!

My point is, and has always been, that the these figures should be useable out of the box.  Poser isn't a modeling application,  although it has some modeling tools, and I don't want to invest a mediocre figure look better.  It's not only the default shapes it's the texture maps and lack of other maps for them.  It's like the difference between buying a new house or a fixer upper.  I also maintain that if they aren't good in their default shapes, vendors aren't going to bother with them either. What should I spend hours trying to make Ryan look good when I can simply load up M4 and hethe look I want with a lot less effort?

Nanette....he's pretty cool! :)

Laurie

Thanks Laurie and Steve. Fortunately I don't need to do pin-ups or romantic images. If you forget about making Ryan and Alyson pretty and rather try and make them interesting, they are actually very versatile. Each one comes with four textures and a very capable set of morphs, straight out of the box. Alyson can make excellent stern schoolteacher, and Ryan can be a bully boss-man, a grouchy grandfather, a pernickety priest or a vile villain. Rather than try and change his pinched mouth and hard eyes to something else, I just need to cast him in a role where those attributes work for him rather than against him. Most Poser/Daz studio artists are very biased in favour of idealised good looks - to the point of the galleries becoming boring. I don't think Alyson and Ryan fit very well into that framework, but they are useful in other scenarios.

looking at ryan again, is it really just his face people don't like? 

cause overall the body shape is pretty decent, anatomically. Feet could use some work. 

Maybe too many people are too familiar with the unrealistic proportions and overall shape of the Daz figures, which are more doll-like than like-like, to give the others much credit. 

~Shane

I think it is the face that people find off-putting. The feet are kind of basic too, but I don't render feet much.

I definitely won't argue that there's a lot of room for improvement with the DAZ figures, especially their general shapes and proportions..

But the shape and the proportions of a figure are relatively easy fixed.

A convoluted mesh OTOH, with bad mapping, bad topology and no decent morphs or clothing support to speak of, is not.

Not to mention that it's a lot easier to fit M3 clothing to a modified M3 than to fit M3 clothing to a completely reworked Simon or Ryan.

Trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse might be "cool" and "different", but it isn't really efficient.

And if you're a single not too healthy person trying to rebuild not just one but more than a dozend meshes into what hopefully looks a little more realistic, you can use all the efficiency you can get.

Why should I put myself in a position where I have to beg in forums for clothing support or have to rely on more or less successful conversions ?

DAZ figures were the only logical choice for me a few years back when I realized the rift happening, and so far nothing has changed.

I tried my luck with Dork, Don, even James I, but won't touch any of the G2 or newer Poser people with a ten foot pole.

They really do s*ck that much.

But then, I think that V4 and M4 pretty much s*ck, too, even if for other reasons.  ;-)

For me it's either the 3rd Gen DAZ meshes or Genesis.

The 3rd Gen are the most robust and have tons of support.

The 4th Gen were stopgaps that were neither here nor there.

The 5th Gen is better tech and working pretty much as it is meant to be.

It's not just money you invest into Poser, at least for me, it's a lot of time, too. Building all those figures was a lot of work, and if I ever were to "abandon" them I certainly will go to something more advanced and not backwards again because of some "brand loyalty".

I was very close abandoning Poser for good years ago when Studio introduced reverse deformation morph tools to create JCMs.

They worked brilliantly in Studio but sadly not as well in Poser.

They were the one tool I always wished for since I started with Poser in 2000. Bad joints and crumpling mesh could finally be 100% fixed.

Thankfully ColorCurvator stepped up and created a similar tool for Poser. And thankfully he also updated it for PP 2012, so Poser is still useable for me. Even with perfect photorealistic looking skin, bad joints are something I simply won't tolerate in 2012. I created my first "Joint Improvement Magnet" about five minutes after I loaded Posette for the very first time.  ;-)

Still, after 12 years of rigging in Poser I'll soon try to rig a figure in Studio to see how it goes.

Seeing the amazing things artists have already done with this new technology, it would be shame not to give it at least a try.

Here's a diagram I just threw together illustrating the "realism" between P6 James and Ryan 2. 

I've said before that James is the most anatomically accurate of all the male figures, but as this diagram demonstrates, it's actually Ryan that is the most anatomically accurate. 

The comparison page I've included is from the book "Anatomy for Artists" by Barrington Barber.

I've done this comparison before - not including Ryan - between all available poser males, (I didn't have Ryan at the time) and came to the conclusion that P6 James was the most accurate, but he's now been replaced by Ryan2.

So I'm guessing the consensus is that most people prefer idealized or doll-like figures as opposed to the more realistic ones. 

~Shane

I didn't make my choice of M3/M4 based on any sort of comparison re:anatomic accuracy. Frankly, it never crossed my mind to do so.

When I first started in Poser, I looked here and at the other sites to see who had the clothing items I needed, and I went with M3 (then M4) simply because I could get a working set of characters/clothing/accessories that would work together. That was the deciding factor for me and, quite literally, nothing else.

I'm not sure if Wardrobe Wizard changes this equation. I know I use it (a lot!) and find I have almost everything I need by going that route. We can hope figure accuracy and quality will count for more going forward. (I know I'm sure excited waiting for YOUR character!)

Food for thought for the future.

Attached is a comparison of default V4 and V3 compared to some excerpts of Gottfried Bammes' anatomy book "The naked human".

All photographs include height measurmens, so everything is "to scale".

The Vickys are extremely tall and buxom, but the overal proportions aren't too bad.

Heck, even towering V3 is quickly "normalized" just with a little bit of scaling and dialspinning.

And this is the very crude result of just 10 minutes of dial spinning with V3 RR.

The advantage of the DAZ figures is their enormous flexibility even right out of the box.

Basically, all adult humans are 7.5 heads tall. It varies somewhat, between 7.3 and 7.7, but the vast majority fall into the 7.5 heads range. 

Idealized figures use an 8-heads measurement, as this was a classic way of representing figures. If you consider the majority of early sculptures were done by artists whose goal was to represent kings and heroes who were "larger than life". It's also easier to divide evenly by 8. 

Most every part of the human body can be measured by the length of the head, or some variation of it.

Some examples:

the foot, from back of heel to tip of big toe, is the length of the head.

Forearm, length of head

Upper arm, length of head

Hand, from base of palm to tip of fingers is the length of the face, from bottom of chin to crown of the forehead. 

The head itself is 5 eye widths wide at its widest point. 

The mouth is measured by the corners falling directly in line with the center of each eye.

The list goes on and on, but it all comes back to the length of the head, in realistic proportion. 

Daz figures don't seem to keep within their own scale, as you can see by the measurement I just did on the image you posted. Tallest Vicky is 8.5 heads tall, next one is a solid 8. But each of the human females you provide are all 7.5 heads tall. 

~Shane

But as I said, proportions are a lot more easily changed than the other shortcomings of the non-DAZ figures.

MIKI-I had the most realistic out-of-the-box sculpting and proportions of all Poser/DAZ figures, yet the bad mesh and bad rigging made her pretty much unuseable.

Btw, don't cling too strictly to the 7 1/2 head mantra.

Even Default 8 1/2 heads V3 is perfectly realistic.

Unusual, but realistic.  ;-)

JMHO,   i think the mistake made here begins with the basic measurement 'the head' most CG figures i have studied the head scale is off by someones standard,   is there no standard upon which to base this basic premise, comparing one figure head to another and you will see a wild array of sizes... is there a 'standard head' upon which to begin? is it all subjective to 3d platform? the basis of eye width raises the same questions what is "standard" and is this standard universally acceptable? ...i find most publications on the subject contradict one another...looking around in 'real life' i find no easy answers, just compare the photos above of the real human models to one another and you will see what i mean... if you model a character to exactly match one of the models, its 'off' compared to the other two...

 this is what makes us human, in order to replicate humanity we have to incorperate variety, there is no universally acceptable model..we see the world from different perspectives...one persons trash is anothers treasure...

my thoughts are: we dont need to waste anymore time seeking 'perfect form' instead we should strive for variety, populate the CG universe with diversity as we find in the natural universe..it would get pretty boring looking at the 'same old thing'... just create 'your' example and do the best you can with it adjust it to your liking and make it as user friendly as possible...if it makes 'you' happy ,it just tickles me to death... even if it turns out to be 'perfect', someone will point out the fact that it is 'too perfect'....

:O)

JAFO, the 7.5 heads rule is universally acceptable for realism, in both 2D and 3D.

Go to any other site - conceptart.org would be a good one - lots of traditional artists there - and ask the question. 

It's the size and shape of the individual figure that you base it on, not a specific "this is the accepted measurement of one head". 

That's why a male and female are both 7.5 heads tall, even though the woman is (usually) considerably shorter than the man. 

The measurement comes from the head of that particular figure. 

Test it on any image of any person, male or female, that you find, and 9 times out of 10, they will be 7.5 heads. If you can, take a straight on photo of yourself and measure. You'll see that you are also 7.5 heads tall. 

The same can be done with eye width, ear height, etc.

I didn't make the rules, nature did - or who ever it was that designed us.

~Shane

im not arguing scale of the human skeletal anatomy...its adding flesh to these 'bones' that cant be standardised, while built on the same basic foundation we are each individually wrapped in varying degrees of flesh, musculature and fat ... even given the exact same proportions of each basic ingrediant, distribution can vary drastically.. the old nature/nurture thing, i have met people who are 5ft tall and 4ft wide, and conversely people who are 7ft tall and less than 2ft wide how do we factor this in? my point is that not every human fits 'the norm' ...scale is variable...do we sculpt what we see, or do we sculpt to accepted norms?...i tend to go with what i see... reality isnt  always pretty...it is what it is...when sculpting George Washington using Abraham Lincoln as a model may not be such a great idea...

:O)

Which makes one wonder who taught DAZ how to model humans since whoever it was wasn't trained in art!