I also think that people who kill, like a serial killer, have a lot more going on than just a bad upbringing. I had a very bad upbringing, and yet I can't even hurt a fly. So was is that "something?" that makes an otherwise normal kid turn to murder? I would more likely think that it wasn't an otherwise normal kid to begin with. That's not saying that kid would have killed if it had a normal upbringing. But those two things in combination conspired to create a serial killer. I do think it's possible for some ppl to be born "bad" and a horrible childhood just sends them over the edge. I mean, we know that some criminals have supressed impulse centers in the brain. However, I'm not one of those ppl that tends to forgive someone because their impulse centers are depressed. They still had a choice, although maybe a bit harder one for them to make than you and I, but still a choice. And for a serial killer, something like regret is something they never feel. ;) So, how did we get on the subject?

Gremalkyn: I think The Owl meant birth order in that an oldest child will act a certain way (but not always) from the baby of the family for instance. Speaking from my own experience: I have two boys. And was a young mother. I had the first one at 18. And because I'd never been a parent before and also young, I raised him in a  certain way. I maybe have been a bit more strict, he went to bed at a certain time ever night, he had to behave when we were visiting etc. But when the second one came I actually eased up a bit. Let em stay up a little longer on weekends, have an extra cookie, etc, etc. Now, because of that my youngest was a bit more devilish than his older brother was. Cause he thought "I can goof off" and mom's a softie. Now, even though I wasn't even close enough of a softie to let them get away with anything, I believe my youngest has different perceptions of me, and therefore others, than his older brother did, if that makes sense. Now the older seems somewhat more stoic, more responsible, more eager to please than the youngest now that they're grown. The younger does what he pleases pretty much ;).

So, I don't think The Owl meant birth order as some sort of a mystical law of the universe...lol. But instead more of a conditioning that parents do unconsciouosly. Most oldest childern were expected to look after the younger ones and more times than not turn out slightly more responsible. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Laurie