I think that there is an inherent creative artistic desire in most humans. Unfortunately, it usually gets stifled as we grow older. That’s one reason why the dearth of art in schools is dismaying. The same is true for the drift away from unstructured play to canned ‘entertainment.’ Poser probably appeals to different people for different reasons. Some, like me, never could draw a decent looking stick figure. I used to take transparency sheets and trace magazine pinup photos. Then I would tape them to the TV screen and laboriously copy the outline using the mouse on my Atari ST and try to fill them with something vaguely resembling flesh out of the 16 colors (of 512) palette. After that, Poser was like Larry Weinberg read my mind.

As to how many people are drawn to Poser because of the advanced features, I don’t know. If you read some of the laments about how so many gallery images lack this or that, perhaps not many. If you go by the threads seeking to eke the nth degree of photonic purity out of Firefly, then its all there is. The reality doubtless lies somewhere in between. People today certainly have a greater exposure to high end CG effects in the media. I rather doubt that the average punter comes in knowing what SSS, weight mapping etc. are though. As to how many people actually use all the features they paid for vs. how many ‘never ventured into the X room,’ you can look at the gallery or look at the forum posts and glean whatever result you want. There will always be a group who complain that others, by not using or producing content for a certain enhancement are somehow ‘holding Poser back.’ just as there will always be a postwork vs. no postwork debate and a do it all in Poser or use multiple programs debate yada yada. It [Poser] means different things to different people.

There’s definitely an appeal to Poser’s do it all capabilities. I’m not sure how many may have been hold outs over using multiple programs because, again, I’m not sure that many people, who don’t read industry publications even knew that multiple programs were used to do that neat stuff. Indeed, my (probably ignorant) impression is that until semi-recently the multiple application paradigm was mostly the domain of Hollywood and a lot of folks pretty much used Max or Lightwave etc. to do most everything. That was of course before the advent of specialist applications like Zbrush, RealFlow separate render engines etc. Its wonderful that Poser can meet a range of needs, but IMO it’s, strength still lies in being a relatively inexpensive, easy to use human figure posing application, that any stick figure impaired person can pick up and produce something that scratches their creative itch. People can deride that as ‘point and click’ or the ‘make art button,’ but it is still (again IMO) the essential factor for a lot of people. It also drives much of the content market. Of course, interesting discussions like this are a bonus.

I agree that something of the artist is inherent in any work. Perhaps much of the difficulty in defining art lies in the duality of perspective – that of the artist vs. that of the creator. It is much easier to discern the rationale for utilitarian things. The designer put X number of bolts on the tank ÷), to hold that sucker together. The driver can only decide that’s not proper tank design at his own peril. The artist’s intent is always open to question and some prefer not to reveal it precisely because they want the viewer to derive their own meaning. In any case, both are right and neither is wrong. Art IMO, allows the maximum of individual expression. That doesn’t settle the question entirely. Tightening bolts on an assembly line can be an expression of craftsmanship and pride. With all due respect to those, if forced, I would assign a higher degree of ‘art’ to the tank designer - and even his or her expression is constrained by the physical imperatives of materials and function. Painting, modeling, music writing may have some constraints, but in the main, you are limited only by your imagination and skill. The grass can be blue and the sky green, and armor can be impractical. Choosing to follow a certain technique or discipline is certainly an expression of individuality and thus within the bounds of art.

The whole art/not art debate is feckless but humans are bound to name and classify things. I think the very fact that we bother shows what a fundamental value we place on it. To the degree that art touches or inspires us, it probably validates our personal view of life, the world and our existence. Perhaps that which fails to reach us can safely be dismissed as not art, sparing the necessity of questioning our fundamental nature. It is no accident that Rorschach used ink blots as a personality test ÷)

“… there was something more spontaneous with the limitations of early Poser …”

Ah, the freeing nature of constraints. It may be that those who prefer the constraints of photorealism feel their own sense of freedom. As to creative pressure, if it is from a higher standard that you now embrace then it is good. If it is to meet some ‘you need to use X or your work is crap,’ line, then you might as well start looking for bolts to tighten IMO ÷)

I love a box. => When it holds my Christmas gift.

I hate a box. => When there is a bomb inside.

Question?
Do I love or hate a box?????

Want realism??
Want "real"??

Pull the plug out of your PC/MAC.
Go out, and walk around on the streets with your eyes wide open.
Get back home, and start the thing back up.

Did you see a Poser/DS figure out there?
Any?
Close?
Come on, do not be shy...... => You have your "realism" answer.

You "ll have to make it... That is ART.

Happy Posering

Oh, sooooo sorry, I forgot to answer my own question... LOL

I LOVE a box because we are free to extrude the faces into whatever we want.
LOL.

i'm not sure what you mean Vilters, are you saying that using poser/ds figures it is impossible to get anywhere a realistic human model, or that only by creating a figure from scratch can anyone hope to achieve anything near "realism". I don't know whether I have stated my case definitively enough, i am neither pro nor anti realism, I appreciate the effort that goes into creating a mesh model such as the Stan figure I eluded to in the first post but certainly don't think that every cg artsit should be trying to emulate it or their work is somehow diminished becuase their renders aren't realistic, yet trying to achieve a degree of realism sometimes stretches the mind. I can remember a post you were an active and really positive contributor to, a post I submitted last year about trying to achieve the realistic impression of a figure walking through dynamic hair grass. Your solution to use an inverted cone to create the collision was inspired and led to some great results. So all I'm saying is that realism or the attempt to create realism of a close approximation of it makes for a more interesting life. Would SSS, EZSkin, VSS , BB's car shaders, EZ Metals, the list is not exhaustive, have been worked on if it were not for the desire to create realistic skin metal paint shaders, would the cloth room be there if there were not a desire to create realistic clothing fits for stills and animation, heck there has even recently been a great thread on dynamic hair where people have been trying to achieve realistic looking  hair.

So as much as realism is or isnt a dirty word, the impossible dream, many people seek to achieve it. As to the success of the results, then that is for others to judge. Once again, i am neither an advocate for nor condemner of said form, I just appreciate it when it is done well.

What I mean is that NO Poser or DS figure comes close to realism in any of their measurements.

All require extensive morphing, and tuning to get close to something human looking.

No figure, no morph ++++++++ /////// -------- or ::::: or ****** pack comes close to something realistic. . LOL.

=> The mesh needs morphing.
=> The textures need reworking
=> The shaders need reworking.

If you want realism, you are going to have to get your hands dirty.
Lo or Hi poly, Poser or DS figure, jpg or png.... Nodes, materials, and/or shaders.

The most important being? Know your personal goal, and know your tools to get there.

Years ago, some dial spinning was all that was required. But modern end users set their goals higher.

Yes, I do remember that hair room grass. LOL. It was fun to play with and find solutions.

Sometimes, I say to myself : Now you'v made/morphed/sculped a nice figure.

Then I go out shopping, look around, and shake my head sayng : Dear dear, you are lightyears out of line.

Is it the mesh?
Lo or Hi res textures?
Less or more Poly's?

No, it is what the hand is doing with the keyboard, because any mesh can be morphed into any figure with Hexagon or Blender.

Lo Poly with a displacement map.
Or :
Hi poly with no displacement map.

=> Not a soul on this planet can tell what is what.

Realism is in form, and shape, and texture, and shaders, and scene, and light, and, and, and, , , ,.

Realism is home kooking, instead of Mc Donalds.

And, ha-ha-ha-, yes sometimes thinking outside of the box, like the hair room grass.
Or furr.

Furr???
Do I use a noice displacement node?
Or do I use the hair room this time????
Or at this distance in the scene would a bump map do?

Questions, questions, questions ....

And if somebody gets close to realism????
He/she has my upmost respect.

I view realism / hyper-realism as a useful tool with which to gently crowbar my surrealist / romanticist / fantastical / downright nonsensical notions into the mind's eye of the viewer...

...I guess the theory is that recognition of a worldly optical phenomenon will trigger recognition... or at least some measure of acceptance... of whatever embedded metaphysical / transformational precepts, archetypes, metaphors, allegories, or just (and more commonly) what random abstract silliness has happened to escape through my own mind's eye, from the depths of the id.

Poser / ZBrush et al are my equivalent to the Krellian "Plastic Educator", as Morbius named it, in Forbidden Planet.

Is it art? Well, perhaps the real art is in living life, really? Out of the many and varied by-products of that, what is, and isn't art, is likely in the eye / mind of the beholder...

It's definitely much easier to recognise, and agree on what consitutes, great craftsmanship, than it is to universally determine what makes good art, perhaps?

He he ;)

"Ah, the freeing nature of constraints. It may be that those who prefer the constraints of photorealism feel their own sense of freedom. As to creative pressure, if it is from a higher standard that you now embrace then it is good. If it is to meet some ‘you need to use X or your work is crap,’ line, then you might as well start looking for bolts to tighten IMO ÷)"

mmm, I'd say a combination of higher standard, being shoe horned by the improvements in the software to approach even greater emulation of real world phenomena, and the whole ignorance is bliss angle.

@ monkeycloud... well, the themes and arrangements in your renders are certainly fantastical. Your visual execution, however, is entrenched firmly in the poser photorealist camp. I guess it never occured to you that by using so many instantly recognizable BB shaders and Rendo Poser Forum photorealist techniques that you might in a way be slathering a coat of homogeneity over your imagery. This is not an insult to your work, which in general I consider to be top notch in terms of ambition and Poser technique... I do have some critical views of being so easily able to detect this or that veneer. BUT, I guess you are going with the best available and so...

...Did I just see Vilters refer to non-realist work as being McDonalds, in a perhaps 'oblivious to the meaning of his analogy' way? (attempting to stifle various things).

That is just incredible!

Quote - @ monkeycloud... well, the themes and arrangements in your renders are certainly fantastical. Your visual execution, however, is entrenched firmly in the poser photorealist camp. I guess it never occured to you that by using so many instantly recognizable BB shaders and Rendo Poser Forum photorealist techniques that you might in a way be slathering a coat of homogeneity over your imagery. This is not an insult to your work, which in general I consider to be top notch in terms of ambition and Poser technique... I do have some critical views of being so easily able to detect this or that veneer. BUT, I guess you are going with the best available and so...

He he... actually, yes, it did occur to me... that was kind of my point I suppose.

I think that element of recognition gives some leverage, to the crowbar, in the context the work is being presented in.

That's part of the source, of my use of the term hyper-realism, I suppose. I could equally, or perhaps more correctly, have gone for using the term Poser-realism.

I see something almost Baroque (probably what I mean) in my almost certainly excessive, obsessive application of many of these materials, for other-than-realist ends.

I also, I should note, tend to revel in being an epitomy :)

The above statements and my previous post may, of course, be merely a retrospectively cited justification for picking up the prettiest paint colours I saw in front of me and pouring them, apparently at random, onto my badly primed canvas. He he ;)

But I got away with this type of thing at art college... at least in the sense that I graduated with a reasonable grading... so why not here?

“...I guess the theory is that recognition of a worldly optical phenomenon will trigger recognition... or at least some measure of acceptance...”

That is a very interesting thought. I’m sure you’ve seen those studies about how many features it takes to trigger recognition of a human face. They may even be able to monitor the activity of a seemingly dedicated structure in the brain – I don’t remember. At any rate, it doesn’t take very much. Even something as crude as using : – ) can do it. Now Vickie is clearly a human being – despite what her detractors say. She packs enough information in her polygons to recognize her gender and even her approximate age, as the fans of naked faeries have sometimes learned to their peril. What she and almost every other 3D model lacks is that last bit of whatever to trigger recognition as a ‘real’ person, the last mile, foot or inch over the uncanny valley.

Faced with the valley, we are more comfortable with that which is clearly not real than with something that’s almost but not quite there. IIRC, roboticists have found that people are uncomfortable around humanoid robots that are too human looking also. I’m don’t know where the future of virtual humans will go. Hollywood would probably love to ditch those multi-million dollar salaries. Currently though, they still rely on name actors for voices, facial motion capture etc. I’m not sure that a purely virtual actor without a ‘real’ personality and life would go over. They’d probably have to create drunk driving arrests, leaked sex tapes, feuds with other virtual actors etc. to make them plausible.

Fortunately, at the Poser level, we don’t have to worry about the lack of a dossier. I don’t know whether the quest for ultimate photorealism is becoming more mainstream or how much of it is a relatively small subset anchored here in the forum. People will always pick and choose what elements they want. As I said in the ‘proper faces’ thread, I think there is a strong desire for idealized figures and that many people use poser as more of an escape than as a documentary tool. That doesn’t mean that the techniques of photo realism can’t be very appealing. People may want realistic skin, but it may be green, or outsized breasts that move like real ones. Thankfully, there is room for every taste and its great that people are always pursuing new things.

@lmckenzie, Yes, AI and simulant / replicant tech has certainly always fascinated me...

...even just in the context of it as a metaphor for the human condition. How our individual consciousness, that we encapsulate and cherish in the conceptual Victorian specimen jar of the ego, is in so many ways just an echo of the world we have been born into and inhabit.

I so often feel that all of our technology is just some kind of perverse metaphor for our metaphysical potential.

I should say, of course... many thanks for the critique Primorge and I'd very much welcome more of the same!

I must say this forum challenge idea of yours has been a real challenge... I've been to-ing and fro-ing on a number of ideas. Yet to settle on something, to be honest...

I have, however, purchased several more of Littlefox's Plushie range... to go with Rufus, whom I found had been bundled with Poser :)

It's no mean feat to try and shoe horn BB's shaders onto those Plushies... I can tell you.

Well, not exactly shoe horn... blend BBGlossy2 with displaced fur more like. Not sure why I'm doing that... but it seemed like a plan. I seem to have been caught up trying to develop a wool carpet shader, for Lulubelle's fleece. He he... been playing a lot with just that actually.

But materials aside... the actual scene idea for the January Forum Render Challenge theme of "Furry Renders!"... the composition and content has been the hardest part to nail down...

@ primorge> Quote -...Did I just see Vilters refer to non-realist work as being McDonalds, in a perhaps 'oblivious to the meaning of his analogy' way? (attempting to stifle various things).

No ; Do not twist my words.
 You did see vilters say that dial spinning is like going to Mc Donalds.
And that is why all V4's look like V4's.

And my respect goes to those who actually "make" something.

By actually "make something" do you mean with a computer?

...Tell me something vilters did you actually "make" the low res figure that seeemed to be "made" by you in that thread you started about your new figure?

(uh-oh, here we go).

@monkeycloud...

yeah, the response to the challenge has been pretty underwhelming. Off the top of my head I would normally have chosen something more dark and Lovecraftian which would be more in line with my tastes. I chose the subject that I did in an attempt to give voice to a seemingly popular sub-culture in Poser... who knows?

Thought that spaceship interior with the wall props that you made was really excellent BTW.

Tell me something, where do you get that awesome BBglossy shader anyway. Is it only available through the dreamland models stuff?

As an observation, BB's absence around here has left quite a vacuum in terms of complex Poser technique threads. Hopefully he returns... There used to be so many tutorial threads, what happened?

No, I did not "make" those meshes, Darrel did.

I "only" morphed every vertex in Hex,
"Only" Redid every joint in Poser 
"Only" Reworked the whole texture in Corel.

And where should we go to?

You can not dial, there simply are no dials to dial.

And I posted a workflow "usable for any figure out there" tutorial in the Hexagon forum. 
Is now in the archive.

I don't use Hex but I read your tutorial, amongst other tutorials that you have made... You've been kicking around on the various poser forums for quite a while.

I will agree with you that creating your own content and variations from scratch is really very satisfying, I couldn't imagine using poser any other way. I am a little puzzled by the push button poser users, puzzled and perhaps a little envious after a fashion. But, who can dictate how a tool MUST be used?... An exercise in hubris and foolishness, certainly.

Quote - @monkeycloud...

yeah, the response to the challenge has been pretty underwhelming. Off the top of my head I would normally have chosen something more dark and Lovecraftian which would be more in line with my tastes. I chose the subject that I did in an attempt to give voice to a seemingly popular sub-culture in Poser... who knows?

Thought that spaceship interior with the wall props that you made was really excellent BTW.

Tell me something, where do you get that awesome BBglossy shader anyway. Is it only available through the dreamland models stuff?

As an observation, BB's absence around here has left quite a vacuum in terms of complex Poser technique threads. Hopefully he returns... There used to be so many tutorial threads, what happened?

Well, my forum challenge render may have some bits of dark in it... he he...we'll see how well I do at resisting the temptation...

I know... I must work some more on that sci-fi set. I've learnt a lot more about modelling since I did the bits in that render I posted. Will have to try and get that done soon!

I think BB is just busy with real life work... or, well, who knows.... perhaps the next generation of Poser super-shaders...

He sent me copies of his W.I.P. BBGlossy2 and BBCandyPaint shaders to play with, a couple of months or so ago... so I've been playing with them... and yes, they're awesomeness exceeds superlatives, in my opinion ;)

Been quite busy with other, real life stuff myself though tbh, through November / December time... so not managed anywhere near as much Poser / CG time as I'd like.

Other than that, yes, a lot of the shaders I use are from the Dreamland Models / Bagginsbill vehicles / sets too.

Here's Lulubelle with my latest attempt to get a wool-mix carpet effect on her fleece... it's using BB's Candy Satin Flame shader, from the BBCandyPaint set, with Noise node displacement and just various Clouds / Spots and an Edge-Blend node, all blended, modulating the diffuse color... I started off with the shader in this thread at RDNA though, believe it or not...

...something about the idea of her fleece being made of wool-mix carpet appeals to my sense of the subtly surreal... the gently grotesque.

Perhaps I'm at risk of going a bit Koons with this one... although, I think I'm still some way off that.

The material on the face and ears etc is from the BB / Dreamland Car Patio set... called simply "Cloth"... I've just tweaked the diffuse of that with an Edge_Blend node.

Back in the day, when i made more physical artworks... paintings and some sculptural stuff... a lot of my process was based around "found objects".

In terms of painting canvases, I developed a technique of starting with a small-scale collage (usually made up of magazine clippings and my own photographs, cut out and composed into somewhat surreal scenes). Then I painted that onto a much larger scale canvas... in oil... often with the emphasis more on paint effects and textures, and abstracting any photorealist content in my source imagery.

Then I moved onto to making more sculptural pieces, formed out of all sorts of old junk, textiles and scrap metal, woven and bound together, mixed with papier-mache (strips or pulp) formed elements, to make giant dinosaurs, mythical altars, fractal nebulae, tiny figures sculpted out of bits of (old school) hard drive wiring... macrocosms and microcosms.

So, for me, the notion of using what I find, either free or picked up from the marketplace... the process of "bricolage" that is possible with Poser... following this process to make imagery... sits quite comfortably alongside my parallel ambitions and efforts towards actually modelling some content myself.

To my mind, it's all good... and art and craft are two intrinsically complimentary and interdependent things ;)

Looks good, man. I do find that IDL combined with toon figures is a peculiar effect... I don't know, sorta creepy. Your character is like a strange hybrid of eliphas levi's Baphomet with an alien and an apartment. (ummm, meant that as a compliment).

I've always found acrylics to be more sympathetic to collage works...

Thanks for that RDNA link, BTW. I look forward to your contribution to the challenge (don't obsess too much with technical issues) and keep in mind the winner must choose the next topic, I'd like to participate in the next one just as long as it isn't photorealism. Speaking of the challenge, I was astounded that I won that as I spent all of my time setting the scene up, A3 morphs and textures, posing, and creating props and when it came down to render time the final image was my last minute render with fingers crossed. Literally, I only did one render of the entire scene... there are many things that I'm dissatisfied with.

Speaking of Lovecraft and Baphomet, I'd love to create Poser prop figurines of those two entities... on my to do list. Alas full time work is such a burden to my minds eye endeavors.

anyway...

Baphomet, an alien and an apartment... yes! I'll certainly take that as a compliment... he he...

I would highly recommend "oilbars" for collage. I used those a lot, with wax crayon... generally on top of collage and some acrylic.

My actual canvases were just pure oil paint though... and a lot of it. I don't know how I afforded it as a student... I'd struggle now, to work on that scale... and with such excess pouring of oil colors (mixed with alcaflow a lot of the time... poured on with the canvas flat, or slathered on with a palette knife).

I really liked your entry to the last comp Primorge... a deserving winning entry IMHO. Sometimes... indeed usually... the renders I make quite quickly are the ones I end up least dissatisfied with I reckon.

I will spend hours fiddling around with a shader, or morph tweaking a character, for an elaborate scene idea... then spend days rendering that scene...

...then scrap it, and end up throwing a couple of the elements together into a spur of the moment idea... and rendering that in one take... and liking that result more ;)

I would have entered your challenge this time round Primorge, I have some time again now, but unfortunately me and cuddly things have a love hate relationship, something to do with being savaged by a Teddy Bear when i was about 3 yrs old the specialist says.......

Actually i don't possess any, only the stock Poser content ones.......

Actually Mystic, I don't think Plushies, or even toons, are obligatory in the rules for the current forum challenge...

e.g. just a scene featuring animal figures (either solely or alongside human figures) would probably qualify for entry?

(i.e. just provided the animal figure is in a "prominent role" - but it can be a realistic figure)

Yeah, sorry to hear about your childhood trauma involving a teddy bear, by the way...

...I remember finding the song "Teddy Bears Picnic" a little bit sinister as a young kid.

Must have been even worse for you then? ;)

Mystic, stuffed animals are only one of the options. Give it a shot, man! there's still plenty of time to throw an entry together (Jan. 31)... perhaps something off the creative beaten path. Try experimenting with obvious kitsch...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch... for some inspiration and imagery that easily satisfies the subject requirements.

Sir, you sorely tempt me with your empassioned plea. I shall peruse my repository and select an appropriate bestial object in the honest pursuit of the creation of an entry into the aforementioned cradle of creativity.

Excellent!

Yes, look forward to seeing what you come up with Mystic!

I think I've got my entry idea pinned down now... and I discovered a whole folder of runtime items I'd forgotten I had, in the process... he he. So some of that's got to go in. Then probably come out again.

Something I ran across in my Poser stuff folder - how the brain responds to various elements in art. Looks like some other interesting articles as well.

What the brain draws from: Art and neuroscience

Love these kinds of essays...

One of my favorite art books deals with the subjects in your link, Art and Visual Perception: a psychology of the creative eye. Rudolf Arnheim.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Art_and_visual_perception.html?id=Cn4yEyF-Gr4C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Arnheim

A great read and a classic.

Indeed - looks like a great though weighty read. Makes you appreciate why things like computer vision are so challenging. There's an incredible amount of algorithmic complexity encoded in our 'wetware.' We're just peeling back the layers of the onion, discovering the neurological basis for what artists have understood for centuries.

Primorge- I DO speak for myself! You are correct-from your perspective-and I've no desire to tell you otherwise. Many people enjoy representative, figurative work. Some people love chocolate ice cream- I have other favorites-does not make them wrong.But my point is there are many who DO want to see Poser and other programs make closer approximations to reality.

Quote - Speak for yourself, Eric Walters... I have no interest in trying to make poser act like a high end app. Couldn't care less about Luxrender, Reality, days long renders with trying to perfect every little glistening oil droplet on the edge of every little pore.

I personally like higher poly figures because you can morph them into further unreality, and transform them into something that comes closer to being mine. Until that time where I can develop my skills enough where there is no need for pre-made content (and who knows if that will ever happen) I'm kinda stuck. The dilemma of an artist that enjoys representational, figurative work and is new to the medium of 3d (which frankly is the least purely intuitive medium I've encountered).

lmckenzie:

I didn't realize where the inspiration came from.
zBrush has a Bouguereau inspired render.

http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/gallery/2011/9/#

http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/features/zbrush4r2/dynamesh/

"zBrush has a Bouguereau inspired render."

Cool, which one. On the (I assume) Sep. 2011 page I see some gnarly monsters and a NNVOABWAS (Naked Not Vickie On A Bull With A Sword) amongst others.

Dynamesh sounds pretty amazing, though it might cause seizures amongst certain folks as it sounds, however vaguely, like the concept of, you know … :-)  

If you google
william bouguereau cupidon
it's that painting

http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/gallery/2011/9/#
second row ,3rd over

http://www.pixologic.com/zbrush/features/zbrush4r2/dynamesh/
she's on the right below the boxer
there's 2 videos at her feet

been around video's since the start ,astriods ,pacman etc etc
never a seizures ,just a lot of cussing ;)

Ah, got ya. The thumbnail was so dark on my monitor I couldn't quite make out what it was. Beautiful work and incredible attention to detail - looks like a bronze. I think she's a he though - based on the subject & his other works featuring the character - just about impossible to tell otherwise. It would be interesting to see how close someone could come to his work in Poser.