Jaager, I think what Jack was trying to illustrate with the realistic limits comment, was that the limits set for most Poser characters are totally unrealistic. That leads the user who is not aware of anatomy into all kinds of odd poses. For instance, in regard to the wrist, Poser lets you twist the hand, which if you hold your forearm so it can't move and try to do, does not happen more than 1 or 2 degrees. You are right about the forearm not twisting equally along its length and Dina's parameters are set up to mimic that as closely as possible. It's not the elbow that twists, but the forearm itself. Also, the limits on most Poser figures allow you to move the forearms and shins side to side. That also does not occur naturally in the human body. It may happen a degree or so under external pressure, but cannot be done on its own (except possibly by contortionists whose ligaments are not the norm). It isn't possible (yet anyway) to get a mesh to totally acurately follow normal movements, but realistic limits go a long way toward making poses look more natural. Diane