manleystanley opened this issue on Nov 02, 2013 · 55 posts
DustRider posted Sat, 02 November 2013 at 5:15 PM
***Quote -***I still read the DAZ forum regular even though it is 90% DAZ propaganda by Dazzers, not carraraests.
Actually, I'm just a guy that enjoys 3D, and Carrara is just one of the tools in my tool set, but Carrara is my favorite 3D tool. I do however understand that it can't do everything I would like it to do, and probably never will, so I have to use other tools in creative ways to do what I want. I would love for Carrara to have all of the features of C4D Studio, Vue infinite, and DAZ/Poser content compatibility, at the price DAZ currently asks for it! But, having been it the Technology/IT industry for almost 30 years now, I know that simply is not possible. I can’t afford $5,000+ for C4d Studio with InterposerPro, Vue Infinite, and the annual maintainance of it all (which is more than buying a full new license of Carrara Pro every year), so I'm quite happy that there is a great all round 3D app that uses DAZ/Poser content and is affordable for me.
At least the Dazzers over in the DAZ Carrara forum are actively trying to show/use the tools found in Carrara. They talk about the good and the bad of Carrara. For example in the modeling thread, people are actually learning how to do things in Carrara, instead of just gripping that it's not Modo, Zbrush, C4D, Maya, etc.
I realize that most of the people posting here seem to think all the b****ing and moaning will get DAZ to change their ways, that it won't hurt the sales of Carrara, and if it does, that's good, because it will force DAZ to sell Carrara. Unfortunately, that is pretty flawed logic.
First, if I had never used Carrara, and read all the posts in this forum, I'd never give it a second look. If I read the posts in the DAZ Carrara forum, then I definitely would investigate further. Not everything is positive, but there is a lot of good information to be found, and some great examples of what Carrara, and the tools found in Carrara, can do.
Second, the idea of DAZ selling Carrara because it’s a losing endeavor? Highly, highly doubtful. DAZ has put a lot of their proprietary tech into Carrara, IMHO the only way they would sell Carrara is to sell the whole company. If that were to happen, look for prices to go way UP.
Instead of bashing the "Dazzers", you should be thanking them for showing that it is possible to do some great things with Carrara, and generating renewed interest in it. This might actually boost sales to where we actually will see a C9.
The negativity is so strong in this forum, that I actually started doing some serious research to see if there was an acceptable replacement for Carrara. Guess what? I couldn't find one. The only other app that does good landscape work with integrated plant generation is Vue, but it doesn't have a lot of the features that Carrara has, and Genesis use is pretty iffy (yea, I know y'all hate Genesis - but this was for me, and I like Genesis). Shade has Poser compatibility, but no landscapes, and no Genesis. I could go on, but to get everything we have in Carrara, I would need to get C4D Studio, Interposer Pro, Vue Infinite, and forget Genesis. At $5,000+ just to get started, I'll stick with Carrara.
Oh, I forgot to mention, I’m really glad we have people like Dart in our little community. He really does a lot to inspire me – that’s for sure!
***Quote -***I'm sorry but the biggest thing in C8.5 was genesis compatability, but it was done so poorly, and is so buggy it adds no value for me; and many others, to carrara.
If DAZ wants me to pay $285 for a freaking .5 update it had better have the triax tools to work with the new content, that Studio has, and have them working as well.
Compatability with a dead figure, and an autofit that most of the time doesn't or requires a lot of work to fix; that DAZ seems hell bent on preventing you from doing, has no value.
As I note above, I like using Genesis, it very impressive technology, and IMHO it's great to have it available in Carrara. I was prepared to pay between $100-$200 for the upgrade (at discounted introductory/PC pricing), so to get it for under $80 (with my monthly PC coupon), I'm really happy with the C8.5 upgrade.
Could Genesis integration in C8.5 be better? Definitely! But, let’s keep in mind that DAZ brought that technology into an application who’s roots are quite old. I'm sure that Carrara's code has to be pretty fugly, considering it's a hybrid of merging of Raydream and Infini-D. IMHO it's pretty amazing that they were able to do it as well as they did.
General Rant Warning!!!
I've seen so many post in this forum lately about how horrible Carrara is, how DAZ has completely borked it, how expensive the upgrade is, and how Carrara should have all the features of Maya, C4D, etc. - while keeping it at the current price or less.
Seriously???????
Programmers don't work for free, and 3D programmers make more than programmers in most other fields. I've seen speculation that over the last two+ years that DAZ should have been able to completely rewrite Carrara. OMG! Really? Does anyone here have any sort of idea what kind of undertaking that is?? A general rule of thumb for me when I'm planning a new project - take the time I think it will take, increase that by 200% and multiply be 10 (or simply multiply by 20), and I might be on time/budget. When staff gave me time estimates, I multiply by 10-20 (depending on the person), and can usually get pretty close.
Someone here put forth the idea that Embree could be added to Carrara in a day or two? Seriously?? Come on, you do realize that implementing a new render engine into Carrara will require either programming a shader translator for all the possible combinations of shaders in Carrara, Or the creation of a new shader system that isn’t compatible with the current render/shaders? The render engine and the shader system are co-dependent on each other, changes in one will affect the other. Integrating Embree would no doubt be no trivial undertaking. How much do C4D users pay for software maintenance/upgrades? One look at those prices and you can see that they have the financial resources to pull of such a big project. At what, $80 to maybe $150 per upgrade for C8.5, DAZ isn’t getting a fraction of the cash flow from Carrara the Maxon is getting from C4D. Botton line ….. if you’re willing to pay PRO prices, then your get a true “Pro” software, and regardless of the pricing of the software, you will get features that the company can afford that fit into their business model.
Remember TrueSpace (one of the main competitors to Carrara)? They tried to re-write their base code to improve and modernize it, after several years they still didn't have a completed product, sold out to M$, and it's dead now. What about NewTek and their attempt to do the same thing?? Didn't turn out so good for them either (but much better than TrueSpace).
If you want Pro tools - you have to either pay the Pro price, or maybe go to Blender. In most cases, you will lose good Poser/DAZ content compatibility, and in all cases you will lose the level of Poser/DAZ integration we currently enjoy with Carrara. Why? Because most of the small studios (and all of the medium to large studios) rely on in-house created 3D assets. Figures rigged for DAZ/Poser simply do not have the features that larger animation studios need. Poser/DAZ figures are great for the 3D prosumer market; because of the time/cost/talent it would take to develop our own simply is not something most of us are able to pull off.
Do I think DAZ is perfect? Not hardly, they have a history of shooting themselves in the foot more than any other company I know. But, the general negativity in this forum is not helping to move Carrara forward.
If you want features in Carrara that aren't there now, or certain bugs put on priority to be fixed, you need to present your argument in a professional manner building a case that will make business sense for DAZ within the context of their business model. Saying that this app or that app has this feature and I want it isn't going to even be considered. Or saying that features x,y,z will make Carrara a pro app and will be an immediate hit with the studios and sell umteengillion licenses isn't going to work either. The Pro market is a very well defined market, that is already the realm of the big companies (i.e. Autodesk), and studios aren't going to dump their in house asset inventory investment (or spend thousands of $$$ to convert them for use) for a software that is untested in their industry. To get the attention of product development at DAZ, you need to present a business case where the development of feature X will obviously improve both the sales of content (where DAZ makes their living) and sales of Carrara to the DS/Poser users in their current market niche. If you do this, then they will listen.
Take it from someone who had to deal with users and staff complaints on a daily basis for years, incessant complainers who don't provide a good business case for why they need feature x, y, or z, or why we need to adopt a new software app (other than Joe uses it and it's really cool), gets ignored REALLY fast.
Honestly, if y'all hate Carrara and DAZ so much, just make your life better and go use something else. Blender is free, and pretty darn impressive, oh, did I say it’s FREE!!!
If you like Carrara, then maybe it would be good to start having a real dialoge about it's strengths and weaknesses. Show examples of both, and workarounds for the things that need them. More users will mean more $$ for the bottom line at DAZ, which in turn will mean more support from DAZ. After all, they are a for profit business.
Rant Off (I feel better now)
OK, running back into the shadows and lurk mode before I get totally torched by the flames.
__________________________________________________________
My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......