Well...back to Dawn's effect on the 3D community --

Again, I think her most positive effect -- other than reuniting some members of the Poser/Daz polar zones (we all play nice together at HW, usually) -- is the branching out of users.  The stretching of talents and comfort zones.

I've seen several people adopt Zbrush, primarily because they've seen what can be done with it, in regard to Dawn clothing and morphs.  I've seen one or two folks try their hands at character making.  I see more people who want to learn to make clothing for 3D figures.

I don't know why Dawn has had that effect.  Maybe because she doesn't have a full stocked wardrobe of clothing and characters, like V4.  We feel like we need to fill in the gaps.  But anyhow, I enjoy seeing people hone their skills and develop new ones.  :-)

Ok, are we steering back in the general right direction?  One never knows in cyberspace.  ;-)

Quote - I don't know why Dawn has had that effect.  Maybe because she doesn't have a full stocked wardrobe of clothing and characters, like V4.  We feel like we need to fill in the gaps.  But anyhow, I enjoy seeing people hone their skills and develop new ones.  :-)

Ok, are we steering back in the general right direction?  One never knows in cyberspace.  ;-)

The simple answer is that DAZ figure policies are no longer in play. From the release of P5, it was made plain that P4 tech is all that would be developed with. That damaged the original Poser mindset that this was a group experiment. That the Poser app was as open as it was due to the fact that the developers -wanted- to see what could be done. Conforming clothing, ERC, JCM, INJ, all of that came from the community exploiting bugs or as a solution to problems that arose. And since the g-thing is not natively useable in Poser, the community is roaring back with its talent. 

Quote - > Quote - I don't know why Dawn has had that effect.  Maybe because she doesn't have a full stocked wardrobe of clothing and characters, like V4.  We feel like we need to fill in the gaps.  But anyhow, I enjoy seeing people hone their skills and develop new ones.  :-)

Ok, are we steering back in the general right direction?  One never knows in cyberspace.  ;-)

The simple answer is that DAZ figure policies are no longer in play. From the release of P5, it was made plain that P4 tech is all that would be developed with. That damaged the original Poser mindset that this was a group experiment. That the Poser app was as open as it was due to the fact that the developers -wanted- to see what could be done. Conforming clothing, ERC, JCM, INJ, all of that came from the community exploiting bugs or as a solution to problems that arose. And since the g-thing is not natively useable in Poser, the community is roaring back with its talent. 

So what you're saying is that as a community, we became lazy. I suppose that's true to a point. While I started learning to model before Studio 4 came out, it was actually the LACK of one Poser figure  that everyone wanted to use that gave me the inspiration to start making clothing for the native Poser figures. No one figure has more clothes that V4, that's true, but now maybe the others can get a little attention too. My only fear with people using Dawn as an attempt to replace V4 is that if we're not careful, we'll be right back in the same situation a couple of years down the road.

What I can't figure is, why doesn't Smith Micro put out its own glamour girl?  I know they have access to the talent.  The SM figures are cute, and ok to use, but there's no glamour girl. 

Anastasia is as close as we come, and she's a morph.

Oh, Lord, I'm sorry.  I'm drifting OT again.

OK, I guess HW saw the glamour girl gap and decided to fill it with Dawn.

In the V1,V2 days the Modeler of V1,V2 was and still is one of the Greatest Mages of CGI.
When Merlin made Dawn ,everyone noticed. :)

Quote - What I can't figure is, why doesn't Smith Micro put out its own glamour girl?  I know they have access to the talent.  The SM figures are cute, and ok to use, but there's no glamour girl. 

Anastasia is as close as we come, and she's a morph.

Oh, Lord, I'm sorry.  I'm drifting OT again.

OK, I guess HW saw the glamour girl gap and decided to fill it with Dawn.

As I understand things, Poser's dev team has always been a software driven entity. Even from Poser's early days, the content was developed by a third party, Zygote, who eventually became DAZ. Poser's figures were basically learning tools for newbies who, it was assumed would eventually move on to other third party figures like V4. They've put some small effort into better looking models in the past, but none really into supporting those models.

That's kind of why I was boh thrilled and disappointed with Content Paradise. Heck, when your own store doesn't even really support your figures... well, why would you expect the users to?

It isn't about if Dawn is a glamour girl or not, or how well she bends. Dawn behave. There are various ways I can import Genesis, V5, M5, V6 into Poser and sometimes it works a while but eventually it always breaks. The same with the new M6. But Dawn behave. She behave in Daz Studio too. And that is how we like it and how we want it. People complain about missing Poser 2014 "advanced tricks". But these tricks are hopelessly outdated and left behind! Poser technology is at a dead end if it can't adapt to the new.

Also it is incredible that Daz did not grafted M6 the way Dawn was made. Hivewire has just shown the way! But they refuse to play ball just as Smith Micro. It is childish really.

RorrKonn, are you talking about Chris?  He is a good modeler.  And...I think he uses Modo.  :-)  Modo is wonderful.

EClark, you're right.  SM could do a much better job of supporting the native Poser figures -- but I still say the figures could be more human like.  They all scream "3D" in their natural state.  I guess V4 does, too, with that awful purple bikini. 

I think Dawn's natural beauty -- and yeah, to me she is beautiful naturally -- is a deterent to character makers.  Unless they come up with a really cool texture and morph, it's better to just use plain Dawn. 

vintorix, I think we posted at the same time.  :-)

Yes Jan. You and I is made from the same stuff.  ;)

Vintorix : is V6 & M6 the same mesh ,with the same topology ?

my bad .I ment to say M4,V4 not 6.
quote M6,V6 with there 60,000 polycount never even came close to what where getting out of game meshes now.quote

-----------------------------------------------

Yes Chris Creek is the Merlin of CGI.
In the Dork and Posette days .Where talking the stone age of CGI.
4 MB 3D cards.32MB PC's that crashed every 15 to 30 minutes.
Very primitive modeling tools ,maps ,textures,rigs .All tools where just a real bad joke.
I literally threw two picture tube monitors out the window and broke countless key boards.
Every one would say why don't you just go back to real world mediums.
Only the most craziest of us would stay with CGI.
In the days when it was a major effort to get anything made in CGI.
Chris Creek does the impossible and makes a pretty girl.Posette.
Even to day the hardest thing to model is a pretty girl.
and with all the tools we have now most still can not make a pretty girl.
Posette alt to stand in the CGI museum.
Even though Posette has been abandoned now .Posette is the greatest of all meshes.
Posette proved you could model a pretty girl in CGI.
Chris Creek ,Posette made us believe we could do anything with CGI.
In all the 4 App's at the time Poser,LW,Max,Softimage.

Chris Creek ,Creator of Dork & Posette ,Michael & Victoria ,Dawn.
With out Chris Creek ,Don't know if there would be a DAZ Poser.

That's the Magic of Dawn.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I don't know why Dawn has had that effect.  Maybe because she doesn't have a full stocked wardrobe of clothing and characters, like V4.  We feel like we need to fill in the gaps.  But anyhow, I enjoy seeing people hone their skills and develop new ones.  :-)

Ok, are we steering back in the general right direction?  One never knows in cyberspace.  ;-)

The simple answer is that DAZ figure policies are no longer in play. From the release of P5, it was made plain that P4 tech is all that would be developed with. That damaged the original Poser mindset that this was a group experiment. That the Poser app was as open as it was due to the fact that the developers -wanted- to see what could be done. Conforming clothing, ERC, JCM, INJ, all of that came from the community exploiting bugs or as a solution to problems that arose. And since the g-thing is not natively useable in Poser, the community is roaring back with its talent. 

So what you're saying is that as a community, we became lazy. I suppose that's true to a point. While I started learning to model before Studio 4 came out, it was actually the LACK of one Poser figure  that everyone wanted to use that gave me the inspiration to start making clothing for the native Poser figures. No one figure has more clothes that V4, that's true, but now maybe the others can get a little attention too. My only fear with people using Dawn as an attempt to replace V4 is that if we're not careful, we'll be right back in the same situation a couple of years down the road.

That's exactly what some are trying to do. This constant quest to nowhere for the penultimate 'Vicky killer' isn't about quality; it's about somehow snagging the golden ring and cornering the market on content. Look at, oh, Antonia. One of the better designed and rigged P9+ figures. And it is open source, so any modifications made are not in violation of copyright. But she wasn't a Vicky killer, so she got minimal support. Just like all the other 'It may be a damned good mesh, but it's not a Vicky killer so why bother?' figures that have come out since the Great Divide.  

Quote - People complain about missing Poser 2014 "advanced tricks". But these tricks are hopelessly outdated and left behind! Poser technology is at a dead end if it can't adapt to the new.

Sorry Vintorix but you're very wrong here. It's statements like this, made by people who don't fully understand what Poser is actually capable of, that cause arguments with those who do understand what it's capable of. 

If you're going to make such a claim then please provide evidence to back it up.

Just because there are no mainstream figures that actually use that tech, has nothing to do with the tech itself being outdated or useless. On the contrary, it's very advanced for being largely a hobbyists software, and there are figures out there that do utilize it, they just aren't pretty or glamourous so most end users don't pay them any attention. 

I can tell you from personal experience, Poser is just as capable of producing a figure that is every bit as functional as any of the high end 3D packages. The process of assembling it all may be somewhat different, but that's true with any software. No two packages go about it exactly the same way, but the end result is the same, or can be if the figure's creator wants it to be. 

The issue instead is what Poser tech should be included, and what should be left out, in order to provide a figure that is both easy to use and versatile enough that people want to use it. If anything, there are too many options, but not enough is definitely not the case. 

As for Dawn, I really don't get what HW3D is trying to do. It kind of seems to me like they aren't even sure at this point. I think they expected more of both DS and Poser users to take her and run with it, but have failed to produce the necessary pieces for her success in a more timely manner. There's no reason for her morphs to have taken this long. It's been nearly 4 months since her release. I get that they're a small fledgeling company, but that is all the more reason for them to be putting more focus and effort on improving Dawn, instead of branching off into other figures before she's even fully established. That time invested in other models is time taken away from finalizing Dawn's necessities so that people can be working on add-on content for her, if that's what they want to do. But I don't know any of the HW3D team so I can only guess at what their intentions are. I know they're working on morphs. But why are they also working on horses and dragons before the morphs are complete?  

She's not a revolutionary figure for Poser, that's been made abundantly clear. She could be, but only HW3D can make her such, because she's their figure. Some things could be added to her by 3rd party artists on a rigging level that makes her closer to that revolutionary figure, but if it doesn't come from her creators, then most people aren't likely to mess with it. Personally, I think they should focus on developing her more for Poser users and leave the DS side of things for Genesis fans. At the very least, they should have been focusing on her and only her for at least the first 6 months.

And in regards to the Vicky-killers, it will take a good portion of the community to want to see a new figure for Poser succeed, and support it. That figure's creators can only take it so far. Some things work against most any new figure from launch - the main thing being that anything new will only function in Poser 9+. It's possible to make a figure backwards compatible with older versions up to a certain point, but some things just won't work. Plus, there's no reason for anyone still using Poser 4 - 8 to really need anything more than V4, so the market for a P9+ only figure is already that much more limited, so it has to be that much better than everything else that's currently available. 

In some regards, the lack of a new V is a good thing because it allows people to focus on the other figures like Rex and Roxie, the G2s, Miki, etc., or build their own figures and hope to garner enough support for them. But, they could have done that before, and they didn't. Two versions of Poser out now, and how much more content do you see available for those other figures? Vendors still aren't doing anything with them. The Poser forums aren't bussling like they used to. Vendors who don't want to move over to DS are still only making content for V4, but I seriously doubt the sales are anywhere near what they used to be for a lot of those vendors. So how much longer does the Poser MP sustain itself on a figure that is 7 years old? Free content for the other figures is great, but free content isn't what keeps an MP going, or the forums for that MP, because it doesn't pay the bills. Without the MP, the community has nowhere to collectively share their freeware, or complain about what they do or don't like about the new figure, if there is one. It's all a domino effect. So it makes you wonder just how good the lack of a new V really is for Poser users in the long run. 

Asside from the first part, a lot of this of course could just be personal opinion, since that's pretty much all anyone has. I don't think Poser is going anywhere, I just wonder about the communities that have sprung up around it, cause they've been awfully quiet compared to what it used to be like.

~Shane

You bring up some good points, Shane, but you did leave out one other factor. Like it or not, the Poser MP is still feeling the effects of a recovering  economy. I bought my first new  product in years just a few days ago, some morphs for Roxie. That's one of the main reasons I just can't support Dawn right now. I just don't have the disposable income to do it.

Don't see Eric Walters waiting on morph packs.

If your dependent on another then your at there mercy.
In 2013 There's all kind of tools for you to make morphs for Dawn.

I wouldn't think those that make there own characters would need DAZ Poser in there pipe line.

AmbientShade Since you have zBrush I know you could make a scene with a Dragon tearing through a barn on a farm to eat a Horse in a day or two.
and you could make Dawn morphs ++ pack in a week or two.

a lot have started collecting CGI Softwares.
DAZ Posers universe is becoming those that are 100% dependend on Stores.
and those that can make it them selfs ,that don't need the stores for every thing any more.

"She's not a revolutionary figure for Poser, that's been made abundantly clear"

The revolutionary is in that she works so well in both Poser and Daz Studio. It is not a new new Vicky killler we are after, but a new way to make figures. Nothing should go to waste. No matter how good Poser is or no is, there are tons of wonderful things in Daz Studio, according to you all that technology should be abandoned. No sir. The morphs are finished and distributed to the vendors as we speak. But there are more figures waiting to be made with with the same technology as Dawn but different (and from different vendors) that is needed, not one ring to dominate all as V4 did before.

Obviously you like making new figures why you don't make figures that work in both Daz Studio and Poser? It can be done. It has been done. Why spend so much time and effort to try to stop new inventions?

 Dawn is here to stay. That is for sure.

Quote -You bring up some good points, Shane, but you did leave out one other factor. Like it or not, the Poser MP is still feeling the effects of a recovering  economy. I bought my first new  product in years just a few days ago, some morphs for Roxie. That's one of the main reasons I just can't support Dawn right now. I just don't have the disposable income to do it.

I don't think the economy has as much impact on the subject as you might think. Sure it's probably had some, but the majority of that impact likely happened early on. 

If anything, something like Poser content should actually have steadily increased in sales, or at least remained relatively the same, due to all the artists who were once working for other companies before, now working for themselves. The loss of jobs across the US has resulted in a lot of people starting their own businesses, and freelance artists are a big chunk of those businesses. They're also a good portion of Poser users.

Plus, it doesn't seem to have hurt Poser sales to a serious enough degree. Since Smith-Micro took over, there have been 3 Poser upgrades consistently within 2 years of each other. All 3 of those upgrades happened during this economic downturn/recession. Sales of the software have to have been significant enough for SM to warrant spending more money on it to produce 3 significant upgrades for it so far.

DAZ has also released Genesis1 and 2 in that time, and several major character packages to go along with it, along with several upgrades to DS. All of that takes money.

Along with that, there are plenty of other hobbyist fields that haven't been impacted by the economy to any serious extent. New toy lines have emerged and exploded in record high sales practically overnight, putting long-time front-runners in serious competition. 

Video games and movies, on a whole, have seen little damage from the economy. Sure there are some studios that have gone under due to it, or were bought out or merged with others, and several in larger studios lost their jobs due to downsizing, but on the whole, the number of games and movies released each year really hasn't changed, and the prices for them have either remained the same or continued to increase. 2 new game consoles releasing this year, that have been in development for quite some time, the list goes on. 

Then there's all the other electronics, and software. How many iPhones and iPads have there been? All gadgets that were first debuting just prior to the economic slide. 

People on the whole are still spending money, plenty of money they technically shouldn't have if the economy was as bad as everyone tries to make out that it is. It's affected different areas of the country in different ways. I'm not an economist so I can't give details or specifics as to why, I can only look at the freelance market and see there's a whole lot more of them now than there were just a few years ago. I know Wal-Mart and Target are still building stores. Sure, others have closed up, but it's not always due to a recession. So while you have been affected by the economy, and likely many others you know, other people have made money from it and are doing just fine. At least fine enough to keep companies like manufacturers of ball-jointed-dolls (something that costs on average 600 to 1200 a piece, for example) in business and doing relatively decent, if not better. 

Quote -Don't see Eric Walters waiting on morph packs.

If your dependent on another then your at there mercy.
In 2013 There's all kind of tools for you to make morphs for Dawn.

I wouldn't think those that make there own characters would need DAZ Poser in there pipe line.

AmbientShade Since you have zBrush I know you could make a scene with a Dragon tearing through a barn on a farm to eat a Horse in a day or two.
and you could make Dawn morphs ++ pack in a week or two.

a lot have started collecting CGI Softwares.
DAZ Posers universe is becoming those that are 100% dependend on Stores.
and those that can make it them selfs ,that don't need the stores for every thing any more.

The issue isn't whether I, or someone like Eric Walters, is capable or willing to make those morphs. 

The issue is that, as Poser history dictates, only the figure's creator is capable of creating the Official morph sets for their figure. That's the only set that most vendor artists rely on. Without it, a figure isn't nearly as viable to a vendor as it could/should be. It becomes too much of a guessing game as to which set of morphs to use, from which 3rd party artist, and most just don't want to be bothered with chasing them all down. 

~Shane

I thought more people would make freebee poses for her. I'm not good at posing from scratch, and after replacing my computer that died, my $$$ is tight.

I use V4 poses with Dawn a lot.  Most of the time they work quite well with minor adjustment.

I wasn't hoping to see a V4 killer, although I think V4 is outdated.  But some people still use her for practical projects, I'm assuming.  Book covers or cg artwork for print.

I was just tired of V4 and wanted something new.  Dawn satisfied that, but I can't understand why we're going around in circles, as someone said.  Or stagnating.  Some of the Dawn content is fantastic, but some is ho-hum.  Like the artist thinks, "Oh, it's for Dawn, let me slap it together and be done with it."

I LOVE to see unique products like Oriana and ES Candy.  ES Candy may have a small head and neck, but at least the artist tried to do something different.  I like different.  Well-crafted different.  And some of the clothing products are extraordinary, too.

But -- as someone reminded me -- some character artists don't know how to sculpt their own morphs and are waiting for the advanced set.  And some clothing vendors might think that any clothing will have to be updated when the advanced morphs come out.  It really won't, since Poser 2014 allows copying of morphs from one figure to another.  Maybe the traditional mindset still rules, though.  :-)

Heck, I don't know.  I'm just speculating.  I have noticed a stagnation though, and that makes me sad.  What's going to happen if our Poser community withers? 

Quote - No matter how good Poser is or no is, there are tons of wonderful things in Daz Studio, according to you all that technology should be abandoned.

What? I never said anything like that. I like both programs pretty much equally. 

Quote - why you don't make figures that work in both Daz Studio and Poser?

Because I don't see any reason to keep trying to merge the two platforms.

~Shane

"Because I don't see any reason to keep trying to merge the two platforms."

How can you say such a thing! I am almost speechless.

But for a start they are already merged. The power of Poser & Daz combined (+Dawn) I can prove any day.

In order for Dawn to function equally as well in Poser as she does in DS, that compatibility has to be broken. That's true for any figure, not just Dawn. The reason is because the two programs are too different under the hood. They are both capable of producing the exact same results, but their programming is different, so they produce those results in different ways. Different does not mean better or worse, it just means different. 

~Shane

I never seen two programs work better together than Daz & Poser in the 20 years I have worked with computers.

At Hivewire Poser and Daz folk have no problem to come together. Peace and harmony prevail.

I too have seen a lot of effort to go from tried and true Vicky to Dawn. I bought hundreds of dollards for Vicky and Aiko3. Iwish more effort was to them. We need more weapons and such. Striking clothes and themes.

More intricate and complicted mesh "intarsia/mosaic style, dynamic morphing of details in real time. Marveous Designer style dynamic cloth.

There is much to do.

"to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." 
Isaac Newton

Tangental, but when you said intarsia, I got all excited...and then I realized you weren't actually talking about knitting. >_>

I wish someone would come up with a breakthrough that allows a fairly easy simulation of a knitted garment, and have it be not heavy on system resources. Siiigh.

Hana-Hanabi,

You are totally right. Artistic knitting is one of the more exiting areas waiting to be explored in 3D context. The problems will be solved in the future! Meanwhile search for "Jacquard knitting" on the web and be prepared to be amazed...

Quote - More intricate and complicted mesh "intarsia/mosaic style, dynamic morphing of details in real time. Marveous Designer style dynamic cloth.

There is much to do.

"to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." 
Isaac Newton

 

 

everyone take a drink. thats 2 shots for Vintorix mentioning MD.

I'm thinking this has just about run it's course.

Tread lightly people. 

Oh thank you Khai-J-Bach for the reminder. I had almost forgotten which forum I was in!

Have a nice day

Just to the point made a few posts back about what HW3D 'should' be working on.

The thing with the horse/dragon etc...  those are things chris is doing in his 'hobby' time, outside of work hours.  He layed out his priorities for his 'work hours' which are the morphs/expressions, body suit and male figure.  The morphs are in standby for release so I'd say done from the modellers point of view.  I havent seen anything on the bodysuit or male version.

I have to agree that it has definitly hurt them, both in terms of vendor support and customer adoption by not having the morphs sooner.  I dont think that vendors should ever really rely on end user automatic processes to add things to their products, so i can very much understand waiting for the morphs to be available before jumping into making items.  The dial spun character offerings also are amissing piece of the puzzle.  Even though I personally kinda scoff at paying for these offerings, some of them come with some nice texture/shader options and that pool still seems pretty shallow for dawn so far.

Photorealism is the holy grail and ultimate goal.

This is where the game industry and CGI in general is heading. And this is where hobbyist CGI is going, too.

So....

I don't care what type of figure Studio users are using.

I don't care if vendors have to work harder now if they want to cater to both sides.

I don't care if new startups are struggling or if software companys are not comfortable with creating content.

I don't care what new or what old tech you are using to build a figure.

All I care about is...

That the figure you want me to use is as photorealistic as currently technically possible.

And that it is flexible enough to depict not just your stereotypically big boobed Barbie doll, but also average people, men, woman, teens, children, old people, fat people, thin people and perhaps some humanoid shaped fantasy folks, too. And a general shape won't do. I want all the anatomically necessary details built right into the mesh.

And not just in a few weeks or months, but I need all of that available RIGHT NOW, because I wasted enough time waiting for "release schedules" and DAZ "soon"

If you can't do that because you don't have the means to hire the professional talent needed or don't have the knowledge to solve the technical problems, I just politely ask you to stop wasting my time.

I owe nothing to some fickle "community spirit" or to any brokerage or to any software company.

But I do owe it to myself to use the best tools available to help me make the best art possible.

 I'm only brand loyal as long as I'm convinced that the product I'm using is the best possible product available.

Again, if you can't give me what I want, if you instead try to tell me nonsense like "re-building bridges" instead of giving me a properly designed mesh topology and a state-of-the-art rigging, you're waisting your time.

There is no "No mesh left behind" policy in the CGI-world. If your mesh is lacking, people will notice. And simply ignore it.

You want support for your mesh ?

Make it worth supporting.

DAZ meshes were never brilliant. Some were downright bad. But they were still always a tad better than the alternatives.

Yes, Apollo bent better than M3. Yes, Antonia bent better than V4.

But their mesh topology sucked, which made detailed morphing impossible. And that tainted the whole figure.

People rather want great, realistic shapes than superior joints. (Of course, now we can have both. Thanks to TECH-NO-LO-GY.)

Yes, the bar is set quite high by Genesis 2 now.

Would have been much easier starting to build such a high-tech Poser figure line a few years ago.

Like I told people long before Genesis I was even released the moment I noticed that V4/M4/K4 had built in features that were not Poser compatible, so a "copatibility split" was inevitable.

But that's not my problem.

I expect a professional Poser figure line to be BETTER than the current Genesis I/II line.

More versatile, more realistic, easier to use.

Why else should I switch, then ?

Poser has all the necessary means to do that, so I won't accept any excuses.

Again, I'm not interrested in building "friendly and supportive" communities. Or "supporting" any buisiness entity because of things they might have or have not done in the past.

After 13 years of fixing crappy figures, the "David vs Goliath" shtik gets old.

I want a million and two dollars and I want t NOW!

Attached Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJtS-FywqQ4

Give me one logical reason why I should trade the good tools I already have for worse ones ?

And then wait months, perhaps years until they eventually get fixed so they are one fine day maybe as good and useful as the ones I already have ? IF they ever get fixed, that is.

Genesis has proven that it is possible to release a complete figure family all at once. Women, men, children, the morphs, it was all there from day one.

You can't open a mom and pop store next to a Walmart wihout having a hugely superior product and then be dissapointed that people won't cut you some slack "just because".

I guess there is a market for anything in the Poserverse. Some people after all might still be using Poser 5 and Don and Judy.

So Dawn might linger around, but she'll be never more than a tiny niche market.

Expecting anything more would be delusional.

And any arguments that she "should" be used because that would be good for "the community" and the "Spirit of Poser" are just getting on people's nerves.

Like Linux fanbois claiming that it is sooo much better than evil corporate Windows just because it is "open source".

I don't mind open source, and I happily use it if it actually does what I need. But I won't give up functionality I need just to proof that I'm a "better person".

I think we sometimes forget that the people that post on this, and other forums, are only a very small portion of the number of people who would be interested in Dawn, or any other new figure.  Of the people who do post here not all have the skill, or the software, to do morphs which means that within users of DS and Poser the number who have that capability is actually quite rare.  I think all this goes some way to explain the urgent need for official morphs for Dawn and why the delay has had an impact.

For any new figure to be successful in this market it needs to appeal to a much wider market then just those that post on forums.  Dawn has potential for sure but for her to be a game changer it needs to use the newest technology and be easy to use, yet this fact alone limits the market as the newer technology in only available to the latest versions of DS and Poser.

Perhaps asking Dawn to be a V4 killer is asking to much, the world has moved on and the opertunity to have a V4 level of success may well have passed.  Now forum users may wish for a change in the market but I am not sure the wider buyer is, which either leads to diminishing returns to vendors or venders need to up their game and, if the market will support it, up their prices.

Quote -  Give me one logical reason why I should trade the good tools I already have for worse ones ?

And then wait months, perhaps years until they eventually get fixed so they are one fine day maybe as good and useful as the ones I already have ? IF they ever get fixed, that is.

Genesis has proven that it is possible to release a complete figure family all at once. Women, men, children, the morphs, it was all there from day one.

You can't open a mom and pop store next to a Walmart wihout having a hugely superior product and then be dissapointed that people won't cut you some slack "just because".

 

Who says you should, Joe? Use what ever works for you? Some people prefer a chisel and stone to work on a statue, some prefer a jackhammer. Whatever makes you happy. But not everyone has your expectations or needs or wants.

Here's the thing for me: I first got into Poser because I needed a way to show the characters in my stories and screenplays. That need hasn't changed for me even though my use of the program has. I LIKE diversity in my figures. I'm writing a screenplay right now and I can go into my libraries and assign each and every figure a role to play. It becomes easier for me to visualize them as the characters in my stories. Just as if they're real actors playing those parts.

I'm not really into Dawn yet, I may never be, and like most people have said, without her morphs, for me at least, there's not much incentive for me to give up V4  or her accessories.

I've never used the "other" figure in that "other" app and I've never criticized the "other" figure, other than to say using it adds unnecessarily to my work flow just to get it INTO Poser, and even then it loses much of the versatility that you seem to tout so highly.

Frankly, I'm satisfiied with the answer that 9+ pages of this thread has provided. Dawn's initial impact in the Poserverse has been minimal at this point. But she has potential. And hey, I don't NEED a "V4 killer".

Yes, the customer doesn't need a V4 killer, but content creators do in order to support it. That is what most fail to realize. In order for most to jump on board with a new figure, it has to be of a similar status. It's as simple as that. Most content creators are like investors. If they do not see a viable long term platform to invest in or one that is generating all the buzz in the market, well then they won't bother. Yes a lot supported Dawn at first because of the over-hype and buzz, but when that all passed, well, just look at the stores now.

Use what you want to use sure, have fun, but most want to use the newest and best. There is no denying that fact. If you cannot provide it, they will go somewhere else. Loyalty is over-rated and really only applies to the old schoolers. Most new blood will jump to what offers them the best and the newest features, and that is something Dawn does not offer.

"....other than to say using it adds unnecessarily to my work flow just to get it INTO Poser, and even then it loses much of the versatility that you seem to tout so highly."

All poses work, all morphs work, clothing conversion is a matter of seconds, geografting works, and the UV-switching can be handled with a not-to-complicated workaround.

Loading is as fast as any other Poser figure, and so is rendering.

Even the "cutting-edge" HD-morphs work fine in Poser.

All in all, Genesis I & II are fully functional for me in Poser. I even made my first custom morph without much fuzz.

Soo...

On the one hand Studio is despised for being closed source and Poser praised for tapping into the "hivemind" of its community to solve problems thanks to its open sourcedness. (At least partially)

Still the oh-so-crafty Poser people refuse to do a few simple "fixes" to enjoy the most versatile, most technical advanced figure that currently exists and rather make do with obsolete figures instead.

Or more or less patiently wait for another knight in shining armour to lead them out of the land of outcasts DAZ so cruelly banished them to.

No, I'm not bothered by what kind of figure people are using.

I'm just sometimes puzzled about the logic behind all of this.

:-)

Quote - Like Linux fanbois claiming that it is sooo much better than evil corporate Windows just because it is "open source".

I don't mind open source, and I happily use it if it actually does what I need. But I won't give up functionality I need just to proof that I'm a "better person".

lol - well, just as an aside, a lot of studios use Linux because it's completely customizable and isn't subjected to all the pigeon-holing and hacking that windows and now even macs, are subject to. All the big titles - zbrush, maya, 3ds, photoshop, nuke, etc etc, can all be run on Linux. It's also not a resource hog like windows and mac.

It's not an end-user friendly OS tho, you have to know what you're doing, or have an in-house programmer that does, which a lot of studios do.

Back when I was in school - which wasn't all that long ago - every time the question came up, "should I be using a mac or a pc?" the answer was neither - you should be learning Linux, because that's most likely what you'll be using in a studio.  Problem is, you'll have to learn THAT studio's custom version of Linux. 

I don't know if that's still the case, 5 years later, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. 

For the record tho, I'm not a Linux fan. I still use a PC because I'm not a coder, and because its easy to upgrade my machine whenever I need to, without being r@ped over the price like Mac loves to do. I was forced to buy a macbook for school (ironically) and when it burned up 3 years later, the only thing I missed about it was all the files on my hard drive that I currently can't access until I fork over the $800 plus it's gonna cost me to retreive the data.

Quote - Yes, the customer doesn't need a V4 killer, but content creators do in order to support it. That is what most fail to realize. In order for most to jump on board with a new figure, it has to be of a similar status. It's as simple as that. Most content creators are like investors. If they do not see a viable long term platform to invest in or one that is generating all the buzz in the market, well then they won't bother. Yes a lot supported Dawn at first because of the over-hype and buzz, but when that all passed, well, just look at the stores now.

Use what you want to use sure, have fun, but most want to use the newest and best. There is no denying that fact. If you cannot provide it, they will go somewhere else. Loyalty is over-rated and really only applies to the old schoolers. Most new blood will jump to what offers them the best and the newest features, and that is something Dawn does not offer.

Right, and that's what I was saying the other night, about the vendors, and the MPs. Vendors are what make all these communities possible. So how much longer can the MPs sustain themselves on a 7-yr old figure when more and more vendors jump ship to the big new shiny? There was talk recently - may have been earlier in this thread - that at least one of the stores (no one said which, but I can draw my own conclusions), are insisting that new vendors support Dawn in order to allow them into the store, and some people were upset about that. That tells me V4 isn't quite cuttin it anymore. Poser needs a new figure that uses all the tech that Poser is capable of, which is why I said earlier that Dawn should focus on being the best she can be in Poser, because it's Poser that needs the new shiny far more than the other guys. But only HW can make that happen. 

~Shane

Well if they stop "horsing" around and focus on Dawn then maybe there is a small chance of that happening:) First party support for your figure is just as vital as 3rd party. It is their responsibility to provide a lot of official content from which 3rd party can create from. These morphs are way behind schedual. Even so, there is no guarentee they are even any good or match current standards. It might even seal her fate even more if they do not live up to expectations. We will know soon enough.

JoePublic, "I'm just sometimes puzzled about the logic behind all of this."

Perhaps that is because you have not tried it sufficiently? I can make a piece of cloth for BOTH Dawn and V6 (using Poser and DS) in the same time it takes to make one figure for DS using DS alone. I am speaking about doing it properly with reverse source morph target. You always need to make two meshes for the Daz figures, the base and the target. Hobbyist will be unhappy to learn that you need a modeling program to to do this.

Then I will just remind you of that a large proportion of Poser users are in the business for clothing alone, and could not care less for the figure. (You can add me to this group)

JoePublic  is the only one (that I know of) that tuns meshes into humans that look like humans.

But why?
Why do end users have to do that? ?
Why can "companies" not release meshes that look like humans in the first place?

Why, oh why, always those balloons?
Why faces that look like idealistc alians?

The first "human" figure that looks like a human,  "will" have succes.

And no, a one size fits all, human, horce, bear, monkey, dog, cat, mouse, will not fill that bill.
It shows what a talented individual can do, but it is by no means what the average end user is looking for in a mesh/human/figure.

Quote - JoePublic  is the only one (that I know of) that tuns meshes into humans that look like humans.

But why?
Why do end users have to do that? ?
Why can "companies" not release meshes that look like humans in the first place?

Why, oh why, always those balloons?
Why faces that look like idealistc alians?

The first "human" figure that looks like a human,  "will" have succes.

And no, a one size fits all, human, horce, bear, monkey, dog, cat, mouse, will not fill that bill.
It shows what a talented individual can do, but it is by no means what the average end user is looking for in a mesh/human/figure.

Maybe because it is more difficult than expected. People often exaggerate their ideals. You like big boobs, then your characters often have way to big boobs. That happens even without noticing it. If you look at paintings and scetch arts you will find the same things there. Yes you are right, I cannot renember any out of the box figure , that looked realistic. ... And I can't wait for the day, where we will have realistic joint bendings with them out of the box - without the help of magnets and JCMs. That is why I still don't like Dawn, because she seems to me more like a lot of steps backward, than a step foreward as she announced to be. To much of a Posette-like toony bodyshape and to me she doesn't bend very well.

Competition inspires.Monopoly's stagnantes.

All of Poser's tech is at least a Decade old.

Unsubscribing from the thread now. This de-evolution into the Poser vs Studio argument is really tiring, and I'm tired of reading it.

Quote - Competition inspires.Monopoly's stagnantes.

All of Poser's tech is at least a Decade old.

 

true, since DAZ Studio stepped in, Poser actually became better. But are those two players really enough? Who else is in that market backed up by a community, that exchange content?

Quote - "....other than to say using it adds unnecessarily to my work flow just to get it INTO Poser, and even then it loses much of the versatility that you seem to tout so highly."

 

All poses work, all morphs work, clothing conversion is a matter of seconds, geografting works, and the UV-switching can be handled with a not-to-complicated workaround.

Loading is as fast as any other Poser figure, and so is rendering.

Even the "cutting-edge" HD-morphs work fine in Poser.

All in all, Genesis I & II are fully functional for me in Poser. I even made my first custom morph without much fuzz.

 

Soo...

On the one hand Studio is despised for being closed source and Poser praised for tapping into the "hivemind" of its community to solve problems thanks to its open sourcedness. (At least partially)

Still the oh-so-crafty Poser people refuse to do a few simple "fixes" to enjoy the most versatile, most technical advanced figure that currently exists and rather make do with obsolete figures instead.

Or more or less patiently wait for another knight in shining armour to lead them out of the land of outcasts DAZ so cruelly banished them to.

 

No, I'm not bothered by what kind of figure people are using.

I'm just sometimes puzzled about the logic behind all of this.

:-)

Okay, this argument is making no sense to me. If it ALREADY does all the things you say it does, then exactly what fixes need to be made?

And why should they make them?

In order to get it working smoothly in Poser, That is what he is referring to. A few changes need to be made.

Quote - In order to get it working smoothly in Poser, That is what he is referring to.

Okay, if I respond to that, I'll get the thread locked, so ... I abstain.