Sorry Shane, crossposted.

I hear you, but at least be thankful you don't live in the UK.  The only reason I'm without an income right now is because I refuse, point blank, to set up my own company in this slimey 'shaft-the-poor' shit-hole of a country.  As soon as I get out of here it'll be 'all systems go' for me, but until then, I have to get by with no income, no support, no car - just a rapidly decaying paltry amount of savings.

Even faced with that, just as with Apple, I wouldn't buy an Adobe product if a gun were pointed to my head.  There are things that the human race simply should not tolerate under any circumstances, and the greed and manipulation both of these companies practice should be tolerated by no man, and certainly won't be by this one.

Ahhhhhhhhh ... that's soooooooo soothing ... space ... and the things that can be done with a simple 2D image ...
Click here for a little enlightenment :-)

I've been using Blender for UV mapping for a while now. If I was forced to use it for modeling I'd eat my own face off. It's just not an intuitive UI. I've tried to like it for a while now and I continue to keep my copy updated, but I can't use it for any serious work because I spend more time trying to find or remember how to do this or that and having to look up vids on it yet again, than I do getting anything done. I've worked through a number of tutorials on it in the past, but it just doesn't work for me. If they would update their UI to something a real human can understand and remember without having to hunt for it every time then I might give it another go, but as it is, Blender is one of those programs that is clearly designed from a coder's perspective and not an artist's perspective.  

I was watching some youtube vids on its video editing features just yesterday, as I'm working on assembling a demo reel and I need some good, affordable software that I can use to do that in that isn't going to fight me the whole way through. And I'll probably wind up doing it in Premiere, which is what I was going to buy originally but wanted to see what Blender and some other editing apps could do first. And if my macbook hadn't died a few years ago, I have Final Cut Pro I could do all of that in, but it's only a mac app, so it's currently serving as an expensive book-end on my closet shelf. 

Here's a blurb about Blender from digital-tutors' software links page:

"Blender is also a free and open 3d animation application. While debated on who it is best for,  few studio settings use it (with growth also debated) though professional grade work can be and is accomplished with it."

If you're not familiar with digital-tutors, basically it's an online subscription service with thousands of training video courses on the most widely used software in the CG industry. They currently have a total of 3 videos on Blender. Lynda is a similar online training site with a bit larger library, and they only have 7 blender videos. Gimp and Hitfilm aren't even mentioned on either site that I can find anywhere. 

Fair enough, the analogies might not stack up but to allude to well, we rent all these things anyways, so adding software isn't a big deal - It isn't a big deal in itself until you are renting everything.  We are talking a single case, CC, but I have concern about the signal it sends and the road it leads to.  Again, I think it's fine as an option IF there are other purchase options also available.  I don't really like being forced in a box either.

I think it's completely fine to use The GIMP, Paint Shop Pro and any of a number of photo/paint programs.  They are all far more capable these days.  Of course you need to make sure whatever any program offers meets your needs.  Unless you are at a company that requires a specific software, it just feels to me like an elitism to go with Adobe, just because it's Adobe.  For me, I have invested in pay-for plugins so I'm going to want PS plugin capability, which means stick with an old version of PS or go with something like PSP.  I don't need 3D painting capability, I have it in 3D Coat.  For layout art and texturing work, I just need something that does it's primary function well.  I don't need to stitch panoramas or whatnot.

@hornet3d: I understand what you're saying. I used to think the same thing, about personal info, how it's used, etc. But I quit caring, cause there's really nothing anyone can do about it if you function in the modern world of tech on any level. If you own a smart phone, if you use an e-mail account, if you have a bank account even. If you do any spending at any store with anything other than cash. It's just not worth stressing over, because if someone wants your personal data they can easily get it, one way or another. The government's goal is to track everybody and record everything they can about them, and unless you can afford to disappear and build your own place somewhere out in the sticks and completely off the grid, you're not going to escape that no matter what you do. We live in the age of Big Brother. So the best bet, in my opinion, is to just blend in, cause the ones who try to hide wind up looking that much more suspicious to those that are paying attention. And if someone wants to steal my identity for credit - LOL, good luck with that one. Maybe they can do a better job with it than I have. I didn't know a credit score could get as low as mine is. Seriously. And it's all due to my student loans, which I have no way of paying off, and they never go away. Can't be discharged in bankruptcy, they follow you like a shadow and only continue to grow interest, late fees and penalties. If I told you how much they are you'd likely drop a brick or two. Before I went to school I had decent credit. Not great, but not horrible either. 

 @AmbientShade.

 I totally get where you are coming from I don't let the possible data use worry me for, as you say there is little you can really do.  I suspect the only real difference between us, on this subject at least, is one of age.  I am lucky enough to have a pension I could take early and thus do not need work.  I doubt that my credit score is fantastic by any means but I have paid for my house so I do have something to fall back on.  I never had student loans as I was lucky enough to have my employers pay for any training a needed.  That puts me in the position that I have no need of a smart phone or tablet.  The only software I use is the software I want to use and I do have an email account and I do use some 3D forums but do not use Farcebook or Twatter. 

From my position I agree with you there is little you can do to stop big brother but I guess I am not going to help by making it easy.  I can't begin imagine the stress of having such heavy student loans must cause but I wish you every success and hope your situation improves in the shorter rather than the longer term.

To be honest, digital-tutors aren't exactly an authority on anything are they?

I never watch their stuff, just seeing their name next to a video is enough to put me off watching their videos, and funny enough, one of the reasons is because they appear to have that suck-up disease a lot of magazines and blogs have - Adobe this, Adobe that.  There's a few of them, then there's "Witch?" a so-called hive of useful information, yet just about everything I read from them has been so far out, it's scary - absolute bollocks - the old lady next door has a better grasp of technology.

Anyway, like I said, best of luck with whatever you choose, the pressure is always on, a side effect of the rat race.  I've never been in debt because I don't borrow, but nevertheless, I cannot wait to get out of this place, buy a cheap old property in the middle of nowhere, and just relax, do it up at my own pace, no mortgage necessary.  You can buy properties for a couple of thousand in Europe so that's what I'll be doing, the more isolated the better as far as I'm concerned.  I'll stick a bunch of solar panels on the roof, water from a well, no bills, no worries.

I think the key is to live simply (especially when you're poor), but some people don't want that and that's understandable I suppose.  I'm lucky though, because even if I weren't poor, I'd still rather live in a hut in the middle of a field or better still, a forest, than I would a fancy apartment in the city.

I have a full CC subscription because it makes sense for me. I regularly use more than three of the apps (it's actually, like, 7 that I use frequently), and it would be detrimental to me to have to learn a new user interface to do what I do in each of those apps, even if there are programs that are free or less costly. As long as you're using more than 3 apps regularly, it's actually cheaper for the CC version than upgrading every two versions, iirc from when I did my cost-benefit analysis (Yes, I had the choice between the CS6 suite and a CC sub. CC sub turned out to be cheaper in both the short and long term for the programs I needed). And you get the upgrades and bugfixes as soon as they're released (you can update them whenever you wish through the CC app) rather than having to wait for whatever version you're upgrading with. 

Granted, there are a few things that are slightly annoying. Sometimes the CC app only wants to upgrade one app and then all the others fail. Solved by shutting the thing down and restarting it, but...annoying. Occasionally (once every couple-to-three) months, Acrobat will just CLOSE and the license checker thing will pop up. Acrobat is the only one that closes, thus far. Photoshop and Premiere both allowed me to work in the background while it checked on my subscription. It doesn't check every time you use it, either. It's just an occasional thing, although it is very slightly annoying. 

More annoying is that the Photoshop bug still exists that if you open PS with your mouse instead of your table stylus, PS will not read any sensitivity from your tablet. Fix is to make sure you open the app with the stylus, but it's still annnnnnooooyyyyyinnnnnngggg. 

I use MangaStudio more for drawing than Photoshop now, but all of my image editing, painting, and postworking I do in Photoshop. 

That's fine. My take on it is they've been going for quite a while, and have established a good reputation across the industry. They're also an extremely affordable alternative to the highly over-priced schools that will charge you thousands and not give you a fraction of the information that sites like d-t will give you. You want to talk about greed and wallet suckers, just look at so-called art schools claiming to "teach" this stuff.

You can learn a lot from youtube and even vimeo for free, but who are you learning it from? What are their credentials? There's a lot of valuable training on youtube but there's a lot of bad info as well, from novices who really don't know what they're doing. You get what you pay for. I like d-t, and lynda, and other sites like eat3d, gnomon, etc., because their training videos come from industry professionals who know what they're doing and have the portfolios and film/game credits to back it up. Many of the instructors at all those over-priced art schools don't even have those kinds of credentials, cause they've never worked in the industry and a lot of them graduated from the same schools they're teaching at now. Had I known all that when I went to school, I never would have gone. It's definitely not done me any good so far.

 I like playing with all the app's there all fun.

but I like some better then others and I'm faster with certain ones.

I have no problems with Adobe ,Autodesk subscription. 

no ones going to tell me what app's to use or how to get them and I wouldn't tell another what they should do. 

the general rule is try it all find what fits you best. refuse to live in fear.

WIth all due respect, Pumeco, you say a lot about how easy it is to make it as "your own boss", but talk is cheap. When you've succeeded, let us know how you did it. Until then, I remain skeptical.

I know very few people who have succeeded in doing this -- and every.single.one.of.them either started out by moving up the ranks in a corporate environment that earned them enough money to finance their self-employment (and build the extremely important networks of people that you won't get simply by using social media) OR they inherited a substantial lump sum that let them do it.

To me, the belief that anyone can make it on their own is about as useful as knowing that anyone can win the lottery. It's true. Anyone who buys a ticket, CAN win the lottery. But if you're relying on the lottery for your future income, you're destined for no where but the poor house. And you're about as likely to "make it own your own" from a start of absolutely nothing (no industry experience, no starting capital, no industry connections) as you are to win the Powerball. Yes, some people manage to start from nothing and create a business that thrives, and some people do actually win the Powerball. But the likelihood that anyone we know will do the same is minuscule. You can keep your dreams, but if you don't have a very good and reasonable Plan A, then in 20 years you'll be saying exactly the same thing on internet forums that you're saying right now. ;)

"To be honest, digital-tutors aren't exactly an authority on anything are they?"

Wow, you start out with "I never watch their stuff" to totally slamming what you have never seen....

Please tell us you are joking. Many of the top 3d companies sponsor (IE pay people) to make many of those videos.

Adobe stuff is only a fraction of what is on there. They are not going to promote anything not relevant to what they are teaching. 

Some of the top people in their fields do video's that are on there, many of them are also reviewed by those companies prior to publishing them,

If you think sponsored videos on software that are approved by the parent company is not an authority, I don't know what to tell you.

Next you will be telling us that the people that wrote the software don't know how to use it to the full potential of it.

Simply because you have never seen it and you know (insert whatever) is a better choice..

The surest rule in this industry is that networking is everything. No one can produce a full length feature film or a triple-A game title on their own. Often times, the people you worked with on one project, or went to school with, are likely to be the ones who help you get a job 2 or 3 or even 10 years down the road. Many studios, especially in this current economy, only keep a small group of core artists and bid out the rest of the work to freelancers and other smaller studios. Even the biggest names in the industry spend a good chunk of their time freelancing. So for those of us looking for work, it's really a bad idea to shun social media - it's a powerful tool in today's market, so by not using it to your advantage, you're really only hurting yourself. It's basically free advertising for your talent. 

 dang I forgot to get a lottery ticket .

but

odd's of getting hired for a CGI studio worth working at. where talking lottery odds.

odd's of getting ya Art on the cover of Heavy Metal again where talking lottery odds.

If your not as talented as a Royo, Borris in CGI, & ya want a lot of $$$ probably best to go to wall street.

Millionaire Artist is a oxymoron :(

That's a defeatist mentality RorrKonn. 

While it is true that it's one of the most competitive industries out there, it's not that difficult to get a studio job. It just takes persistence and determination, and confidence in your work. You have to constantly push yourself, just like any other career if you want to succeed. Skill and talent takes a lot of time to develop. The more time you invest in it the more those skills will grow. You have to try to make every model that much better than the last one and be willing to learn as much as possible and accept honest criticism of your work. It also means setting aside a lot of your personal life and dedicating yourself to your craft for several years, especially in the beginning. I spend as many hours every day as I can pushing myself. I try to avoid distractions as much as possible. I don't waste my time watching tv or socializing too much, cause unless it's related to my work, I feel like I'm wasting my time that could be better spent practicing or working on a commission. If I'm awake I'm almost always working on a new model or learning a new task in one of the apps I use.

You don't have to be on the cover of a magazine to make a good living as a CG artist, you just have to be good at what you do, and part of that comes from looking at and studying the work of the bigger names out there who are successful and really listening to what they have to say. To - loosely - borrow a line from one of the guys in a thread on CGSociety I was reading the other day, "The biggest problem in this industry right now is mediocrity." In order to stand out from the crowd you have to push yourself to be better than all the others you see. If you do that, your work will eventually gain recognition. 

@Moriador
You're so very wrong on so many levels, and the reason is because you're speaking in popular "safe lingo", the sort that people are bound to agree with just because it sounds feasible.  That's precisely why people fail, they listen to everyone else instead of using their own commom sense and their own initiative.

Do you think the peeps behind HITFILM gave a crap about whether others thought they would succeed?
Fact is, they have, and they're growing.

The only reason Adobe are "Industry Standard" is because people behave like sheep, they flock to what they think most people are using, they like to be like their friends or collegues.  Fact is, if the "Adobe suck-ups" that made tutorials made as many GIMP and BLENDER tutorials as they do for greed-machines like Adobe, then those better programs would soon over take them over as "Industry Standard".

It's all to do with marketing, and the publics perception of what is what.

I pointed out earlier that Photoshop is not the most popular 2D editor in the world, that award goes to GIMP.  You have never seen Adobe claim that Photoshop is the most popular in the word, because it isn't, GIMP is.  If Photoshop was the most popular in the world they'd be yelling it from the top of thier big greedy mouths, but as they're not in a position to do that (and never will be) they play on the "Industry Standard" thing instead, because that is the only thing that's holding them together, it's all they have to play on.  Take that "industry Standard" part out of Adobe and you're left with an outdated, buggy, overbearing, overpriced greed-machine and nothing more.

A big thumbs-up to you for learning GIMP, you'll feel better about it when it becomes industry standard, I know I will.

Regards proving myself with a business, I already have, three times, each of which succeded but I dropped willingly out of choice because in this country, you're effectively working to get sucked-dry again (and I didn't enjoy runing a business that much anyway).  I'd rather not run a business at all than run one in this country, especially after the changes made in recent years - screw em.  Like I said, as soon as I get out of here it'll be "all systems go" for me, but then again, that's assuming I want to do that.  I'll most likey run a business for a while, just enough to scrape by for the rest of my life, then drop it and chill, live simply.  I'm not interested in fancy cars, swimming pools and gold watches.

@David
Don't think I haven't observed your behaviour lately, and having a nice cleaveage doen't mean you won't get rectified ;-)

When I watch a tutorial, I generally have no problem with Photoshop being used to demonstrate something now and then (I do my best not to vomit).  But if I then watch another tutorial by the same producer, I expect some variety.  It's not unreasonable to see the most popular 2D editor in the world (GIMP) get used for the tutorial.  Nor is it unreasonable to expect to see Corel's editors get used, either.  But when a producer constantly suck-up to Adobe, they rightly get ignored.  I'm just not interested in learning that crap, and neither are the vast majority of people out there who are using the better programs (GIMP for example).

I don't care who are responsible for their tutorials, I would still have the same opinion if it were being demonstrated in soft focus by a bunch of naked nymphs.  Let me know when they start behaving in a fashion conductive to a healthy industry, then I just might take another look at their tutorials.

Until then, they can rabbit-away all they like, I won't be listening to any of it.

@Shane
You hit the nail on the head when you said you don't have to be on a magazine cover to do well, you just have to be good at what you do.  That's why the whole "Industy Standard" thing is a farce that needs to be ignored.

 Much as I shy away from sites like Farcebook and Twatter I do accept that, if you are running a business or looking to promote yourself or your work, social media is a necessity not an option.  My view of social media is also, almost certainly biased in that it gets a bad press.  It is the dark side that gets most of the publicity and the good that social media provides is rarely promoted.  For me though I have no need for it but as I don't use it would not be fair for me to condemn it or the people who use it.

The same is true of software, each person has made their choice based upon their situation and needs and that is their choice.  I seems reasonable to suggest that there may be different options just in case there is software that they are not aware of but I don't see it is reasonable to rubbish their choice. 

Pumeco, you're free to believe what you want. But you're the one swallowing the big cultural myth. 

You know why the UK is in such a state? Because a whole lot of people believe the Tory line that every one can succeed with enough hard work, that opportunity awaits just around the corner, that the odds are not seriously and ominously stacked against you. The truth is that, while discipline, effort, talent, and networking will get you a long way, luck is equally as important. However, every day you spend telling everyone on these forums how wrong we are about whatever it is you feel like preaching that day -- every day you waste like that, the chance that you'll get an unforeseen opportunity just becomes lower and lower.

I've known a lot -- A LOT -- of people who were always talking about the future. "As soon as I leave this job..."; "The moment I get my car loan paid..."; "Once the kids are old enough to go to school..."; "As soon as I get out of this country..." And you know what? They're still saying "As soon as [whatever]". 

If you have a big plan and you're not actively working on it right now, you'll never work on it. You'll just spend a few decades TALKING about it. That's the truth that people don't like to tell the young folk because it's so demoralizing. Of course, you don't have to be in that position. You could stop preaching and start working on whatever it is. I've lived in 5 countries in my life, and I guarantee that there's no magical place in any other part of the world that will make the difference. You're in a modern, industrialized nation. It doesn't get any better. And if you leave the country, your excuses will come right along with you. So I advise that you stop waiting "until" and start doing now. And put away the Open Source Bible. We didn't come here for a sermon. :) <----- Note the smiley. :)

Edit: As for GIMP, you still haven't explained to me how to export in PSD format. If a client insists on that format, they won't accept something else. Perhaps you're already famous enough in the art world to turn down clients, but most of the rest of us aren't. So we're going to chug along using whatever software is compatible with whatever the other people we work with are using because compromise makes you a lot more friends than always insisting on having things your way. :)

 Years ago when I left a secure, well paid job that had become mundane everyone was quick to tell me I was a fool.   Two years later when my salary was substantially better and traveling the world many said it was OK for me but they had a mortgage and kids to look after.  To a degree they were right, I was lucky to have no kids and a wife that supported my decision, but the there are two sides to that and most of my colleagues in the new company also had kids and mortgages to look after. 

Travelling a great deal I discovered two things, firstly it is not as glamorous as it seems and, unless you make an effort to change, many of you problems go with you.  In other countries I found difficulties very much like home, after a while I had to accept it was not the country that was at fault it was me. 

Many years later I took the jump the other way.  I stopped the travelling and decided to work locally for about a third of the salary.  At each point it was the right call to make, but I was lucky enough that I was in the right place at the right time and had a wife gifted enough to show me what opportunities were opening up for me.  Yes I was lucky that such doors opened for me and I had someone to guide me through but it is also clear to me that many others have had opportunities open up for them and they made an excuse not grasp the opportunity.  Of course, when it was the right time they many found the doors had closed and no more had opened.

It is very easy to find any reason not to do something, much harder to find a valid reason to do something. 

But that's where I differ to most people, Moriador, you see:

• I don't worry about debt because I never borrow, and never will.
• I don't worry about what could happen to my data in the "Cloud" because I don't use clouds.
• I don't worry about Adobe sucking on my wallet because I don't subscribe to greed-machines.
• I don't worry about Autodesk subscriptions because I don't rent software.
• I don't worry about spying and backdoors because I use a safe OS and don't have a SpyPhone.
• I don't worry about housing because I can buy one outright the moment I see the one I want.

That's a lot of stuff I don't worry about and never will, but most people do (or seriously need to).

You probably read my stuff and think I'm an arrogant prick (and that's ok), but actually, everything I wrote here is to protect people, not hurt them.  I know I've had my fair share of disagreements with Shane, but believe me when I tell you, I have every sympathy for him, because like most people who aren't rolling in cash, he's a victim of being shafted by the system, he's the underdog, and I always have sympathy for the underdog.  He's not in debt out of choice, he's in debt because the "system" made him believe that paying for further education is going to do him some good.  He's still jobless and in debt because of it, a scam people are falling for even now.  People need to wise-up and realise that if they don't protect themselves, use a little common sense, then the system will shaft them.

In contrast, I draw your attention to my little list above, that's my situation, and I'm happy about that - I don't need advice in that respect - I know what I'm doing because I have nothing to worry about.  I might not be financially rich, but in a "spiritual" sense I'm way richer than everyone else I know.  I just don't have the worries they have because I do things my own way.  I'm not unique in that respect, either, millions of people do and think like I do, but compared to the Ratrace  we're just a drop in the ocean.

You know what I'd do if I were Shane?
Something he'd likely never do in a million years, but I'll tell you anyway.

I'd take a job stacking shelves, just to get the student loan thing paid off, nothing wrong with that.  Then I'd pack everything into the back of my Toyota and head for Texas.  I'd buy a large plot of land for next to nothing, no loan necessary, and I'd ensure it was in a code-free area so that I could construct my own hut without planning permission.  So lets see now, for practically no outlay (and completely mortgage free) he'd be livinig in his OWN house on his OWN land, and with a constant supply of burning-hot FREE energy from his friend in the Texan sky.  He'd never have to worry about another bill for as long as he lives.  Free electric, free cooking, free heating, free cooling, open land, own design house, I mean, what more could a guy want?

Compare that to what he has now: stress, bills, loans, debt, no land, no house he actually owns.  Like most others who follow the same old routine, he's now having to deal with the consequences of being sucked into it.  The other life I just described doesn't demand these things, it's a whole different way of doing it, a much more pallatable approach to life.  Apart from the debt, I'm in pretty much the same situation he is, the only difference is I know that my plan is a realsistic one, and one that won't fail me.  The reson it won't fail me is because I'm in control of it and won't be reliant upon anyone or anything to achieve it.  That's the beauty of beign realistic and not being interested in doing what everyone else does.  Unless I suddenly drop dead in mysterious circumstances, belive me, I'll be doing exactly what I said i'll be doing.  I have everything in place to the point I could do it tomorrow if I wanted, so it must be true :-)

As for the "PSD" thing, how dare you mention such a thing to me, consider yourself whipped 100 times!

Actually, I don't know the answer because I have no need to touch Adobe formats of any kind, and I'm not going to look into it for you either.
t's for your own good :-D

@Pumeco: 

That's some pretty bad advice if you think you'll be able to pay off student loans and buy land in texas (which ain't cheap) off of "stacking shelves" salary. You're going to have just enough for the basics and some of that student loan... maybe. I'm more with Moriador on this because that post is more grounded in the reality of the what's going on and I've seen the same thing with people: always talking about stuff and on the soapbox, but never really doing anything. The thing is if you're going to keep meaningful employment even in hard times, you need to have the proper skill set so employers keep calling you. They care nothing about philosophical stances; if you don't have what they want, don't expect calls, but do expect a hard life.  And I learned that early in life and as a result, the most I've been out of work is three weeks.. and i'm working a job no where I travel internationally and I have to always have a bag packed and my passport by the front door (which I've been slacking on my 3D projects because of) ... while my friends that had those same type of plans were out of work for months or even years. No matter what career path, you have to keep learning and using the current tools that employers and clients want. If they want SQL Server administration experience, don't think you can apply for the job just knowing MySQL. If a clients wants work in zbrush or photoshop, don't apply if you're putting models together in blender and gimp... you're wasting your time and theirs. If that's what the industry wants and you want that money, then that's you need to be learning or you'll just have dreams of doing stuff... and an empty refrigerator.

EDIT: and no, you can't make PSDs from gimp... at least not easily. Time is money.

Yeah, listen, I've got some great advice for anyone who needs to get out of debt without paying for it!!!

Basically, you need a special cloak, they're a great invention because when they come looking for you, just switch it on and they can't see you!!!
You could kill them off without a trace, a great way to get back at the system!!!

Click Here to see how to make one!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

And on the topic, I did buy the Photographer bundle subscription from adobe to update my set from Photoshop CS4. That was pretty much the only software I had that I needed to update, since I use that, Modo and Zbrush on a regular basis. No complaints about it, and I can always fall back to CS4 if I need to.

I'm fine, so telling me I'm kidding myself is moot, those situations that plague others don't plague me because I can spot scams and bad ideas a mile off.

My suggestion was to pay off his loan first, then move-on to a better life.  I'm not speaking from a sop box, you must have missed the part where I said I could do this stuff tommorow if I wanted, I assure you it's all very real, I can also assure you that millions around the word live like that every day.

I can do these things because I have nothing to stop me doing so.  I also did say that Shane would never do what I suggested anyway, I'm just pointing out what I'd do if I were him.  And BTW, land is dirt cheap in Texas, I'm not even American and even I could snap-up a massive plot for next to nothing!

I personally won't buy in Texas due to American immigration laws, but I'll happily drop you a pic when I have my solar-powered hut in my own little forest (only mine will have to be in Europe).

 Must be just me but life with no cares whatsoever and no ties seems rather sad but each to their own.

"However, the bottom line is that I have to get out of the hobbyist market and move towards the professional market, where I can actually make a living on what I do, That requires investing in software that the professional side of this industry requires me to learn and use regularly in order to have a snowball's chance in hell at getting hired or taking on contracts for large studios where the real money exists. It's competitive enough as it is without making things harder on myself due to my own personal agreements or disagreements with the business practices of this or that company."<<< Shane May I offer the opinion of one who has had a 19 year Career in print Industry staring as a pre prepress File prep operator and eventually becoming a designer and ending as an account manger handling out top high end clients. I am FLUET in Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator& Indesign CS. If you are looking for salaried ,relatively Stable income as a staff member at a graphics company and you wish to, in general ,to have a viable industry Standard graphics skill set in a very competitive marke.t Then get the CC subscription if you dont already own a seat of at least CS3 like I do . Everyones personal objectives are different you should learn/use the software that you think will most likely achieve your professional objectives. your personal feelings about a companies "greedy" business model or some personal mission to see them "toppled" will not necessarily contribute to the achievement of your professional objectives. Get the subscription if you can afford the monthly fee.

@Pumeco: 

In order to really give the advice on paying off loans, you're really have to understand how the government student loan works. For instance, if you take out loans for a law degree, you'd basically have to be working in that industry to pay off the loans because of the cost of law school. If you take out maybe $100k loan for law school, you'd never be able to pay that back working in a grocery store. And you can't default on the loan because the government WILL get their money by garnishing your check. So for some, the student loans can be crushing for them, especially if they don't get into their intended career. 

That's not what it's about, Hornet, it's about being in control of your life and being able to enjoy it instead of being constantly hounded by the system.  If you rely upon the system, you are always going to be hounded by it and that's all there is to it, there's no getting away from that.  The onlty way you can give them the big finger is to be independent of them, your own land, your own house, your own water supply and your own source of free energy.  What's so sad about having your own place on your own land, away from the crowd, totally independent of the grid, what am I going to miss?

Have to say, you got me there, Hornet.  Unless of course you're worried I might not have internet access anymore.  Don't worry, I know how to cover that one as well, I won't disappear from the forum no matter where I move or how remote it is, I'll be able to annoy everyone just as much as I do now.  That said, at first, I'll be very busy renovating, so please bear in mind that you peasnts must come second to that :-P

Then of course, I might have to grow some 'tatoes so I can make a chip-butty.

@Male_M3dia
You know what, I had no idea they work like that, I literally just sat staring at the screen in shock at what you just wrote!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF'ing hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe it, I mean wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwow!!!!!!!!!!
Talk about a government manipulating it's minions!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it, how on earth do those a-holes get away with this sort of thing?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

What freaking right do they have to dictate where the money comes from?
A loan is a loan, the only thing they should have a say in is whether to loan you the freaking money in the first place!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry Shane, really I had no idea, seriously, I want to swear sooooooooo freaking bad right now, so be thankful I can use the word "freaking" in place of a similar sounding word I'd rather use!

FFFFFFFFF'ing Hell!!!!!!!!!

I honesty don't know what's worse, those a-holes for enforcing it or the American public for tolerating it!!!!!!!!!
Hahahah, I'm laughing out loud out of sheer disbelief, I've never heard anything like it!!!!!!!!!

Here's something equally American for y'all ...

---> OH
---> MY
---> GAAAAAAAAAD

Well, at least you can laugh at my attempt at an American accent :-)

 @pumeco

Own land, own water supply and totally independent, well I guess you would miss nothing.  I would miss my wife first of all and then my dog.  Sure they could come with me but I would be forcing them to live their life I want and even then I would miss my sisters, brothers,nieces and friends.  They could all come and live with me but now it doesn't look so isolated any more. 

I am more than happy on my own company and can go for long walks on my own, or since retirement, with my dog, but I would still miss people.  Your dream/plan works for you but it is not everyone's dream and certainly not mine.

True, but I don't need to worry about whether my partner would like the lifestyle, because I don't have a partner.  I see that as a bonus because if I do finally get lucky, she'll already know what style of life she can expect.  Not only that, women are every bit as fond of that sort of lifestlye as men are (I think they like the romance of it all).  There are as many women as men into this stuff from what I can tell, certainly from what I've gathered on forums occupied by fans of the lifestlye.

Doggies like it too :-)

Interesting discussion. I'm not siding with anybody, but I just want to suggest that unqualified absolutes lead to misplaced responses.

For example (and I'm not picking on pumeco - just an example)

• " If you rely upon the system, you are always going to be hounded by it and that's all there is to it, there's no getting away from that. "

You know that's not true. I relied on the system just fine. I paid off my student loan at the age of 24 when my girlfriend at the time asked "If you hate writing checks so much, why don't you just pay that damn thing off?" Yes, the system allowed me, in just two years, to accumulate enough money to pay all four years of my college.

I have two daughters - one finished college and the other has one more year, and both educations I paid for with cash. The system seems great to me.

 Also student loans are funded by taxpayer money. Yes the government can come after you for your unpaid student loans because the American people want their money back; the government is not being a tyrant about it. The loans are there because there are benefits to investing in the economic future of its citizens. But a bad investment is a bad investment and the loan system is set up so that the people get their investment back one way or another, or it would have went broke from no one paying back loans.

But you're only talking about a specific part of the system, BB, one that worked out for you and your family.  Shane is a perfect example of being shafted by the system, he's in debt because he paid for something the government should have provided for free by default anyway.  A governments job is supposed to be to run a fair and pleasant ship and look after it's population, not screw them over.  So to be independent of these monsters is an empowering thing, and for me at least, I think it's not just the best thing you can achive, but the most important.

How much of a crap would a person give about interest rates if they don't have a mortgage?
How much of a crap would a person give about the cost of energy if they get it for free?

Wealth is different things to different people, and like the majority, Shane is trying to sustain a lifestyle he probably never even thought about ditching in favour of other options that are open to him.  The system can work for some, but you only have to look at the state of things to realise it's not working for the rest of them.

lol, yeah.. I could work 4 or 5 full time "shelf stocking" jobs - if there were enough hours in a day - while living on ramen and still not make enough to pay off my student loans any time in the next 20+ years. And that's the case for a good number of college grads in the US. That's how the system is designed here, and for the majority of people, if you don't take those loans, or have parents who were smart enough and wealthy enough to save for your college, you'll never do much more than minimum wage, paycheck to paycheck. Sure, some folks get lucky and make a small fortune as a high school drop out, but the majority of people have to have a degree in order to make a real living. We are debt slaves, simple as that. And last year the amount of default student loan debt in the US broke $1-trillion, and it's just been continuing to grow since with no end in sight. Because more college grads today are out of work than in work, because there are NO jobs for grads to fill, so they're working at mcdonalds or wal-mart or not working at all. For a lot of them, they're now over-qualified for the min. wage jobs and no one will hire them.  

Fortunately the majority of my loans are NOT federal loans, they're private, but they still basically have the same rules as federal loans. They can't be discharged. 

And no, the government should not be giving us loans for free. First of all there's no such thing as free, regardless of where the money comes from, someone has to pay for it. I fully accept my debt and I don't expect anyone to have to pay for it but me. I made the mistake of taking the loans to begin with. If I had it to do over again I wouldn't, but live and learn.

Moving to TX and buying a chunk of land and living off the grid is all fine and dandy in fantasy land, but what are you going to do to pay your annual property taxes? Basket weaving isn't going to cut it, and there's no where in this country you can live on "your own land" (which is a fallacy by definition) and not have to pay property taxes. Like I said earlier, you never really own your own place here. Cause as soon as you stop paying those taxes, the feds will take your place. 

Thanks for the info Wolf. I do have CS4 Design Premium. It just doesn't have all the apps I need. The thing is tho, I don't really know graphic design or print media. I mean I can use Photoshop and Illustrator pretty well, but I can't tell you what the specifics are when it comes to print and all that. So if I wanted one of those jobs I'd have to learn graphic design. My degree is in computer animation. 

@Shane
Like I said, I'm sorry, I had no idea you were being forced into having to pay your loan back through a 'specific' source of income.

But I'll tell you this for nowt, the fact that you Americans speak so lightly about such dictatory systems, is extremely scary indeed, it's like you'll stand for anything - no wonder Apple, Adobe, Google, and Microsoft (all American) can get away with doing the things they do.  The way your student loans work, suggests that a human isn't entitled to change their mind.  These are life changing decisions we're talking about here, yet if you get a loan for this crap and then decide it isn't for you, you're effectively still being forced into a life and 'directon' you no longer want to take despite the fact you might be in a position to pay-off the loan through another source.

It's them having outragous control over your life.  If it wasn't that, and all the the public really wanted is to have their money back, then there should be no problem at all with you paying it back from whatever source of income you chose, should there?  For crying out loud, Shane, know when you've been shafted by the system, sort it out, then give 'em the finger.

Oh, and stick barbs on it while you're at it, I certainly would ;-)

I don't know how you'll get out of your situation, certainly I've nothing to suggest because seriously, I think you must have taken leave of your senses to take out that loan in the first place, especially when such dictatory terms are attached to it.  It just seems unfathomable to me why anyone would do that, but all the same, I wish you well in ridding yourself of it.

I don't think you understood quite what male_media meant when he said "you have to work in that industry". It doesn't mean, if you go to school to be a lawyer, then you HAVE to be a lawyer whether you like it or not. It means, where else are you going to work that will pay you the salary necessary to be able to afford to pay back those loans? The lenders don't care what you do to pay it back, as long as you pay it back they're happy. But a law degree is expensive (and there's no guarantee you'll pass the Bar exam - a lot of folks don't) and working in a warehouse or a retail chain isn't going to pay you enough to live on and pay back those loans. Hell, those kind of jobs don't even pay enough to live on even without the burden of student loans, unless you're in management, maybe. So the moral of the story is to make sure you know this is the career path you want and will stick with so that you have the means to repay whatever loans you acquired to train for it. Or better yet, don't take out the loans. Save for college instead, if you have the means to do so. 

Well I'm bloody glad to hear it, and in that case you'd better start stacking shelves then, and get it paid off.
Once you've done that, don't make any more moves that effectively pull you into the "Rat Trap".

Honest, I don't get why anyone needs to pay for education these days if they have the internet.  I mean, I'll be the first to admit I have a wandering mind (wow, do I have a wandering mind), but the benefit is I get my head into so much online literature because of it that I start to "connect" things in ways a school could only dream of being able to tech me.  I can learn at my own pace, visit sites, watch videos, buy books, download books, diagrams, schematics, files, anything.

So, why get yourself in debt like that when you could do better for free and in your own time, why do that?

Surely, doing it your own way would have been a better option.  You would likely have learnt more than you have already, and you would not be in debt because of it.  I've always felt a good, solid way to learn something is to have a physical copy reference book to hand while I browse the web, so that I can cross-reference things.  I don't know of a better, more relaxed way to learn something than that.  Before the internet, I always used a library to hire books and educational videos, but since the internet, I've not come across anything I've not being able to learn with ease (apart from Baggins bending my mind over Poser Nodes).

BTW: Not related, but do you know if the round avatar format is here to stay, or is it just a temporary glitch?

 @Pumeco:

Employers will not accept "self taught on internet" as valid experience or education on the resume. They want references to properly accredited schools so they know all their applicants are on the same level. You can supplement your knowledge with online materials on your current job and others will look at it if you end up using it there and have a few years on the job training. However, it will not open doors on its own. I started out working on mainframe computers, however I took classes at the local college to upgrade my skillset to programming in SQL Server and Visual Basic while everyone rushed the market to fix Y2K issues. So I had that on the job experience with those languages an my company transitioned, so when the IT bust occurred and the Y2K fixes were done, a lot of programmers were out on the street but I stayed employed and consulting agencies were constantly calling me with opportunities. Because I kept my skillset updated with proper training (at my own expense), I don't stay out of work for long and I get the more hard to fill jobs like the one I have now, which is a combination of programming, support, and database administration... which is why I have to keep my bags packed to head out of the country. You simply don't get those jobs without the proper training, work ethic, and skill set.

 I went through college with scholarships and summer internships at corporations, so I didn't take out any loans. So I entered the IT market free  and clear, though it took a lot of work to increase my salary. Loans work for people if 1) they're prepared to do the work necessary to graduate 2) they choose the proper career field so they make money to pay back the load and 3) they can enter that market when they graduate (nothing like going into the field and no jobs for your degree is available). I had to finance my college on my own since my parents funneled money into supporting my brother's education.. which was a law degree and several Master's financed with student loans... and he never took the Bar and ended up working outside the states for decades teaching English. (The government was harassing me for his location because he didn't pay them and he used me as a personal reference on the loan application. I told them to use their resources to track him down overseas because he didn't tell anyone where he was... and sent postcards with no return addresses). He's back in the states now, and the first conversation he had was with Uncle Sam. They want their money and then some. ;)

Depends on the degree. I don't want a doctor who is "self-taught" on youtube. Or an architect, or even a lawyer. 

In animation, yes you can learn it on your own and really don't need a degree for it, but even with that, there are things you learn in school that you will never learn on your own unless your networking skills are strong and you're able to get into a good company early on with good contacts that you can learn those things from, such as industry standards, do's and don'ts, etc. Teamwork is everything, and they don't take too kindly to rebels who think they know more than the rest of the team or think they can get by doing it "their own way". That approach will get you unemployed pretty quick, if ever employed at all. Cause your boss to lose a contract or be late on a deadline for trying to go it your own way and it will be a long time before you find work at another studio again.  

I don't think that your "training on the Internet" will work that well. You may have an interesting portfolio to impress someone, but I guess formal training, with a piece of paper to prove it, will still be better to open doors. 

And I think there is a lot of cultural difference here. I had no need to get a student loan, since getting educated is close to being free in Germany. Some people need a student loan to cover their basic living expenses while studying, but not much more. I have an american friend living here and from our discussions I know how expensive education in the US is. Well, probably I pay more taxes for that, but I'm fine with that. 

Situations are different in different countries, but if you need a well paid job, Shane's way to do it sounds reasonable to me. I don't think that mentioning Blender or Gimp is really a drawback, but it's not a bonus either. They won't change their pipeline for you. 

*  quote bagginsbill*

Interesting discussion. I'm not siding with anybody, but I just want to suggest that unqualified absolutes lead to misplaced responses.

For example (and I'm not picking on pumeco - just an example)

• *" If you rely upon the system, you are always going to be hounded by it and that's all there is to it, there's no getting away from that. "

You know that's not true. I relied on the system just fine. I paid off my student loan at the age of 24 when my girlfriend at the time asked "If you hate writing checks so much, why don't you just pay that damn thing off?" Yes, the system allowed me, in just two years, to accumulate enough money to pay all four years of my college.

I have two daughters - one finished college and the other has one more year, and both educations I paid for with cash. The system seems great to me.

the details of how you succeed in the CGI would be helpful to others. your a boss at ILM or Blizzard ? & how you got there ,school courses ,etc ,etc.

@Male_M3dia / Shane / Bantha
Well, I'll not argue with that, in fact I can't argue with that because what you're talking about here are things that have never applied to me so that's pretty much why I'm not aware of what people face applying for jobs these days.  I don't work for other people, I've always prefered to line my own pockets rather than that of some other bloke giving me orders.  I know it's a perfectly normal thing to be employed, but it's always felt a bit demeaning to me, to take orders from someone else.  I know, that sounds ignorant, but truth is I've never worked for anyone in my life, well, not since the first (and only) job I ever had when I had just left school.  I've always done my own thing since then, always been my own boss.

So basically, Shane (and anyone looking to be employed) is faced with a different set of requirements due to the fact that he's chosen to be employed rather than go it alone.  To be employed he needs to meet expectations written on a piece of paper, but to go it alone, all he needs is to be good at what he does.  You either take one route or the other from the sounds of it.  Maybe Shane does need to go industry standard after all, I'm just glad it's him and not me.  I don't need to worry about whether my software is industry standard, it's up to me what I use because no one can say no, I decide, I'm my own boss.  None of my software is industry standard, I just use tools I think are the best for the job (and none of them are made by Adobe or Autodesk). 

I've attached a photo I'd like you all to view at a 1:1 ratio if you would.
How many of you knew what it was at first glance, I wonder?

You're looking at the most popular 2D editor in the world, this is the new GIMP running in the usual multiwindow mode, but with a custom skin, and laid out just how I like it, clean and functional.

• I wonder how many people will bother to download GIMP after viewing that image?
• I wonder how many people even knew it could look so professional?
• I wonder how many Adobe fanboys just wet themselves?
• I wonder how many people still think that letting Adobe suck on their wallet is a good idea?

I wonder :-)

It takes a lot of money and resources to be self-employed in this industry. Along with a whole lot of contacts, and a good reputation for working well with others and providing quality work to your clients.

Being self-employed means you're always working. You don't have the luxury of taking a vacation, or even a day or two off when you want to. At least not in the beginning. Not until you're well established and have a team of artists working for you to meet your deadlines and a reputation that is gaining you future contracts. Because even when you're not directly working on a project, you're spending your time marketing yourself, acquiring more contracts.

And you still have bosses even when you're self-employed. Every client is your boss, and when you don't meet their expectations, they find someone else who will, just like any employer. Your goal is to sell your talents and expertise to them - they're not selling anything to you and there's a thousand other artists and studios out there competing against you for that same client. It's your job to convince that client that you're the best man for the job, at the best rate with the fastest turn-around and the highest quality. They don't want to hear you can't do this or you don't use that software. They want results and they don't care what your excuses are. And when you fail at one job they hire you for, your chances of them hiring you again for your services drop significantly, as do your chances of acquiring another client, because word can spread pretty fast especially on the internet. One sub-par project you do for someone is ten times more likely to damage your reputation in the eyes of other potential clients than 10 perfect jobs will do to increase your reputation. That's just how it is, in any industry. People remember when they get crappy service and are quick to tell everyone they know about it. Those same people aren't so quick to talk about the great service you provided unless their friends and colleagues specifically ask them about you. 

And even when you're running your own studio, you still have to use software that you may not agree with, to meet those clients expectations. If you're producing a complete film or video game or whatever, a final finished product for a client, then no - the client isn't going to care whether you used gimp or photoshop, or blender or maya. But a lot of the time - far more often than not - you're not producing a finished product for that client - you're only producing one or two aspects of it - whichever area of it that your studio specializes in - such as an animation sequence, or a group of models. That client will then take those files and hand them off to the next guy who will continue with it, and the next guy and the next, until the project is complete. Clients often build a team of multiple artists or studios that when combined will produce the best results the fastest, and at the lowest rate possible for their budget. So if you're using software that the rest of that client's team doesn't use - because it's not an industry standard - then your chances of that client hiring you fall to practically zero. 

As for gimp being "the world's most popular 2D editing software" - maybe the gimp's maker's and it's loyal users believe that, but if that were truly the case, we'd all be reading and hearing about it more on various sites. The only time I ever hear about gimp is when I go to gimp's website. When I take files to be printed they want them in psd or some other adobe format, because that's what the majority of printers use. 

No no no!

See that's your problem, right there:

• The bit where you think you need contacts.
• The bit where you think arrogance wouldn't be tolerated.
• The bit where you think it costs money to go it alone.

Crap, crap, and more crap.

What you do is you grab that free program pictured above, you stop wondering what you should do, and you just knuckle down and you learn it, for free.  If you want to do animation, what you do is you grab Blender, and again, you learn that for free instead of learning a less capable program you'd constantly have to pay for.  Once you have that, and you have a portfolio, what you do is you find a company which, judging by the quality of their current graphics, you know for sure you can do better than.

You approach the company you just observed, you do so whether they're looking for someone or not, you show them your work and tell them: "Hey, has your company got a fetish for junk or would you rather me do your work for the same price?"

No contacts necessary, just lots of arrogance and guess what, providing your work is better than that of their current artist, they have two choices after seeing your totally unexpected portfolio.  They can either continue to employ the talentless twat they currently employ, or they can take you up your offer and get your much better work for the same price.  People in successful positions aren't stupid, if they were, they wouldn't be running a company.  Those people aren't dumb enough to pay for substandard crap when they can get better for the same or a lesser price.

Networking? my arse.
Contacts? my arse.

You need neither.  This all boils down to that ridiculous "must do what everyone else does" attitude again, it's why you're in debt in the first place and you've still not learned by it.  If you look at going it alone like there's a fixed way to go about it "the done way", they yes, I can imagine it would be a bad idea.  On the other hand, if you were to drop these muppet-like tendancies and force your talent onto people, things might be quite a bit different.  To do that, you need a portfolio, and to build a portfolio you need to knuckle-down and learn something thoroughly.  One of the most important factors of learning, say, GIMP and Blender over, say, Photoshop and Maya, is that when it comes to going your own way, you will never have to concern yourself with "breaking even" just to fund your software licence (and that's a biggie).  It's a biggie becuse this in itself presents another benefit in that you are always in a position to undercut those that need to recoup their licence fees.

Who has the real power to get the contract?

• Those who have to charge higher to cover their insane costs?
• Those who don't?

I don't do animation, but if I did, my main competitors would be those that could undercut me, not those using Maya.  I'm not talking crap here, either, I'm talking to you as a poor guy, but someone who can afford to sit on his arse annoying people on the forum all day (in case you hadn't noticed :-P).  I can do that because I'm not worried about running out of money.  That's because I can, at any time I wanted, practice what I just told you and I'd be set for another five-ten years of loafing around (because I live simply).  I'm not talking specifically about using GIMP or Blender to do that, it's all relative (and it's all pretty new to me as well), but it's the same take on how I do things, I'm still here, I have no debt and I have no worries.

I have zero income right now, but that's out of choice, and it was only a few years back I feared I'd be homeless by now, but a simple self-reminder of how to get around it all, sorted that.

Stop doing what everyone else does and stop thinking that just because everyone does something, that it must be the best way to do it.  If you keep doing that, you're effectively just one muppet in a billion, it's not surprising then, that it's hard to stand out.  The worst thing you can do, in my opinion, is "do what everyone else does" and go about it "the same way everyone else does".  You only need contacts, or to worry about offending people if you work with other people.  The only people who matter are "customers", and that's something most companies are an epic failure at grasping these days.

Find customers, respect them, don't even think of trying to screw them over or lie to them, and they'll be loyal.  When you have a customer it's because they chose you and not someone else, the respect needs to be returned.  But as far as business goes, you look after number one, because that's what your real competitors are doing too.  Now, you can let what I just said to you flow right out of the opposite ear and try to point out that I'm kidding myslelf or that I have it all very wrong.  I say good luck with that because the fact that I'm telling you this from experience means that I do in fact, have it all very right.

My apologies for the length of this post :-D

Face Palm

Pumeco, you clearly haven't the slightest clue how this industry really works or the history of it.

"industry standards" has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with getting the job done fast, the right way, the first time. 

If Blender was such an awesome tool, then all the biggest studios would be using it, and all the biggest schools would be teaching it. Why would they spend thousands on Autodesk when they can spend zero on Blender? A company's number one priority - regardless of the industry it serves - is to maximize profit and minimize overhead. They're not using Maya or Lightwave or Cinema4D because they love spending wads of money. They're using it because they love MAKING money, and those packages provide the results they need and want. 30 years ago there were very few CG artists and even fewer studios for them to work in. Very few software packages existed at the time that could accomplish what those studios needed. As time went on the major studios worked with the software companies to develop software that met those needs, because they had the resources to fund that development, and from that, industry standards were born.  

When Blender first launched it was a complete failure. Virtually nobody wanted it or were willing to pay for it. It was completely un-intuitive to the majority of its users (and still is) and it failed as a software company. (By intuitive I mean easy to learn and use, all the features are accessible without having to dig through a hundred different menus and memorizing where this or that function is, or where it's been moved to with the latest update - something Blender's developers still have not grasped after well over 15 years of development - to the point now that they can't change the UI without pissing off their loyal users, so they're kind of stuck at the moment). The only reason it still exists today is because its developers decided to make it open-source instead of shelving it. And that's great, because the indie market needs software it can learn on and produce it's own art with. I have nothing against people using blender. I'm glad it exists. It's been a great success as an open-source, no-cost alternative to the starving artists who just want to learn and create art. I don't believe anyone should be prevented from creating simply because they don't have the funds to learn. On top of that it has helped to grow the indie market substantially, taking the reigns out of the hands of the giant Hollywood and video game moguls and giving them at least some bit of competition, and in turn some good art for people to enjoy. I appreciate the existence of a lot of the freeware open-source software that has come along over the years. But they are no replacement for the software that I and many others prefer to use, and it has nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with ease of use and quality results. And sorry but Blender does not do everything Maya does, not by a long shot, and definitely not easier. I can say that from first-hand experience with both programs. It can produce similar results, with a whole lot more frustration and time spent, but it is not a replacement for Maya or any of the other high-end software. If it were then more professionals would be using it. But the bottom line is, use what you want, be a pioneer and show the world what Blender and Gimp and all the other open-source software is capable of. Meanwhile I'll be using the software that I prefer to use and the software that will get me hired - either as a freelancer or in a studio. I'm not picky, I just have no interest in being a rebel, cause that doesn't pay my bills.

And as far as student loans go, my debt is my own fault. It's not because I went to school so much as it is due to the BS and drama I had to deal with while I was going to school, from someone who I thought I could trust and stupidly getting involved with when I had no business being involved with, and allowing my relationship with that person to take precedence over my education. THAT is the main reason why I'm in the situation I'm in now. It's an extremely long and twisted story tho and it's in the past, thankfully. 

I had to facepalm too.

I have to be honest about pumeco's advice... that's like a when an obese person was telling me how to lift weights when I dropped 20 lbs and was getting definition (and my chest ;) ) and all I seen him do since I started working out was talking and leaning against machines. You really need to listen to the advice of people that are where you want to be. I'm sorry, but I have no desire to be broke and only time I'll listen to someone that was homeless is someone that is making over a million now. If you were homeless and you've upgraded to broke, you simply don't have any valuable career advice to offer because you're not doing the things I need to see in order to further myself in my career.

For example I have two friends. One I hung out while I was finishing up my last classes in college and we worked in a record store. He always had financial problems but was lecturing me how to do things, even after I bailed him out of jail for what I found out was bounced checks. Of course I ignored his advice, graduated, quit the record store and started working in corporations. Years later he's still living check to check doing retail and we don't keep in touch or hang out. My other friend, was broke when I met him and was working a dead end job doing video editing for a cable company. He quit and was cleaning gay bathhouses for money. He saw what I was doing with my career and took my advice and went back to school. Now he's a project manager at a major financial institution up for a job making six figures. Can he give advice on how he moved ahead from nothing? Of course he can. Can my other friend give advice when he's not qualified?

Of course not.

 I  bet a major financial institution payes well but it's wall street related.

 Male_M3dia your job is wall street related to ,I guess ?

and ya make DAZ Poser content on the side for extra money ? 

it's good you all are successful but it's not being CGI successful. 

 AmbientShade your full time job is Renderosity ,right ?

 I know bagginsbill is successful .just don't know if it's in CGI or Programming or etc etc.

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I've been a Artist my hole life .that started long before home PC's and CGI .it's all I know.

got in to CGI in 1998 ,before zBrush ,forums and youtube and all the schools and everything else.

I was one of the first to complain about manuals being written buy third parties that had no idea what CGI even was.

I like knowing I played a small part in manuals being written buy actual CGI Artist. 

---- 

If I was just starting out to day as a CGI Artist. I don't have a clue where to start.

any one here know the correct paths to take ? is there a harvard of CGI ?

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one thing that is timeless thou only the best rule.

so no matter where you start and no matter what paths you take at the end  

you need to make damn sure no matter what other peace of Art buy any other Artist is set next to your Art.

that your Art is the best . One Rules the rest live on there knees.

Pumeco, for someone who does not need a stable income your views may work. But most people do. If you don't live in a country with a good social security system, money matters. In addition to that, if you owe someone money, it matters even more. 

If you want to make a living for yourself and possibly a family things look different and you will need contacts, clients, experience. Or a fixed job, with a boss who tells you exactly what he wants. As a freelancer you depend even more on your clients.

I would love to do a full time job by modeling or designing things. I don't even try that, because I know it would be close to impossible to earn the money I need to keep a good standard of living. My actual job is mostly boring, but well paid, and I don't want to risk that. I mean, I live in Germany, I would not starve and still would have health insurance and a place to live, we do have a good social security system here. But I still prefer to have some money to spend.