Thanks Corrie. Well Len. you're right about 8 being set up like a phone, but it's all changeable, so that's good. It just takes a lot of time. I'll let you know what I think of rendering,etc. if i ever get things to that point. Thanks for the Java info. I was so tired, and I didn't check where I was downloading from. My bad. It wasn't Oracle. sigh I will try again today.