Cool. thanks for the clarification.  Someone told me a few months ago that in effect IDL had the reverse effect of AO  so that the 2 fight each other in an IDL render.  There is another thing that people didn't catch on to that started in P5 or P6, it was the "Gather" node, I'm sure you know what I mean, I can't look it up as I have a render going at the moment.  It was used to fake IDL ... Anyway.  As I said before, I don't know the math, but I want to help if I can.  Let me know if I'm being a pest who is clueless.

Boni

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"Be Hero to Yourself" -- Peter Tork