hypothetically, if i can 3d print KatieP7 fairy figurines to sell at craft fairs, is that okay?

i don't have a 3d printer yet, no idea how well printing fairy wings would turn out

does poser fit into a 3d printing workflow?

oh, i thought i was posting this in poser forum. don't know how i ended up in community forum.

i don't have a bookmark to community.

could a admin please move this to poer forum?
thanks!

Only thing I know is that the Daz figures can be printed for personal use only.

Hi @mistylaraprincess-- I'm now moving this to the Poser forum.

Thanks!

Did you check the Poser EULA to see if there is anything in there about 3D printing. If there isn't, don't assume it's ok to do it. You would need to contact SMS and ask them.

i bought poser before the 3d printer thing became a thing. was wondering if anyone knows if they'd made a statement?

if she's 'water tight' - printable?
nostrils, eye sockets

mebbe i'm better off doing it all from scratch. how does everything 3d go from fun to lotsa work?

hypothetically, if i can 3d print KatieP7 fairy figurines to sell at craft fairs, is that okay?

No, it is not okay. (I am not an attorney.)

As I interpret it, from the EULA for PPro 2012,

"...You will not use, copy, modify, derive, distribute, transfer or sublicense the Restricted Content, the Unrestricted Content, or the Other Content or any copy, modification, derivation, or portion thereof, in whole or in part via any means or for any purpose whatsoever except as expressly permitted in this EULA or the Documentation...."

The Kate figure mesh qualifies as "Restricted Content." Any derivative of that which includes the "original mesh" in any way (see above) that is not directly allowed and provided for by the program would not be directly authorized by the EULA. So... "No, you can not 3D print Kate 2, or derivatives, without separate licensing saying that you can from Smith Micro, the copyright owners."

Examples of licensing can be found in Renderosity's own licensing agreements, located around here, somewhere. For 3D printing, you would have to pay a royalty for each figure that was 3D printed at the time of the printing, NOT just at the time of sale. So, for every figure you printed, whether you ultimately sold it or not, you would have to pay a licensing fee, even if your entire inventory ended up in a landfill.

You should contact Smith Micro for clarification and instructions on how to apply for specific licensing which would allow you to sell and distribute figures printed using the copyrighted mesh, even if it is a derivative (morph) or contains partially original content that you created. (However, if it contains entirely original content, you wouldn't have to do anything like that, since you would own the copyright to it as the artist who produced it.)

"Water Tight" means that it is an entirely "closed mesh" with one, and only one, contiguous surface throughout. Also, that surface can not bisect itself, as far as I know. Typically, you will find breaks in the mesh at the eyes and mouth. You will have to check the mesh using a 3D program and make alterations as necessary to close these holes and to be sure groups are properly joined into one group.

Take a look at MakeHuman. AFAIK, the figures created in it are open source and royalty free. Poser does have the Project Human figures. These are open source. I would go back and read all documentation included with Poser about them. I believe you could use them to make 3D printed figures. If you're not sure whether you can or can't, ask Sixus1. Or, as you said, create your own from scratch. That way, the entire work would be yours and you would get to decide what do with it. However, modelling a fairy figure from the first poly up is a long process.

You may be able to if you own Poser Pro Game Dev, as Kate and Kate 2 are part of the royalty free content, and the only restriction on distributing derivative works is that it is for "solely Legitimate Uses and lawful uses." However, 3D printing is not specifically listed under Legitimate Uses, although exported geometry can be distributed for game use. You might ask about this over at the RDNA forum...

Antonia is open source...

"Legitimate Use" includes the intended use as the program is designed. As it is worded in the EULAs I have seen and, since most redistributors have EULAs that specifically protect copyright on 3D printing, it is best to assume that reproducing the geometry in a form other than what is specifically provided for by the program is an illegitimate use. Also, it is absolutely forbidden to redistribute the geometry in any form, so no 3D objects could be sent, for instance, to a third-party 3D printer without specific permission from Smith Micro or the original artist, if copyright is reserved. (IE: Makehuman copyright owners may, for instance, allow for this use if the figures are derived from their software. However, that licensing may not extend "through" Poser to the end-user. It may stop at Smith Micro and Smith Micro may have a "limited use" agreement with the copyright owners of Makehuman.)

The Poser Game Dev EULA does allow distribution of derivative works of the Restricted Content (it's hard to distribute a figure to a game without its geometry!).
MakeHuman figures are open-source, so they may be freely redistributed under their "No Rights Reserved" CC0 license.

Lara should ask SM for clarification if she is considering the Game Dev route ..

Just for curiosity: which section of the EULA allows us to make renders, display our renders, print our renders and even sell our renders?
And which section does limit this to 2D-rendering and printing, and forbid 3D (4D 5D etc) rendering and printing?

My opinion:
The only thing I'm not allowed to do with content is to ship out (portions of) 3D meshes (and 2D textures) that contain (in the literal sense) licenced content. So there might be an issue with shipping stuff to a 3D printing service, like there is an issue with sending Poser scenes to a Poser Render Service if such might exist.
But I don't see an issue when 3D printing by myself, and don't see an issue when I render the scene into a JPG and send that out for printing service (as the JPG cannot be re-engineered into the 3D mesh), and likewise I don't see an issue when some 3D-rendering proces should exist (run at home) that turns the 3D scene into a 3D-print file in such a way that the originating mesh cannot be re-engineered. Then such a print file could be send out to a service bureau.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but then... prove me so by showing the relevant sections.

aRtBee posted at 9:18PM Mon, 31 August 2015 - #4225655

Just for curiosity: which section of the EULA allows us to make renders, display our renders, print our renders and even sell our renders?
And which section does limit this to 2D-rendering and printing, and forbid 3D (4D 5D etc) rendering and printing? ...
Perhaps I'm wrong, but then... prove me so by showing the relevant sections.

The EULA may change across versions. For instance, for PoserPro 2012, the version I have, here are some relevant statements:

(PS: Sorry for the lack of any decent formatting. Markdown sucks hard and it false-positive's itself all over the darn place, since it was never created for the purposes they're trying to use it on this forum. It's not my fault they switched to it. ...Quoted paras denoted by asterisk/indent or something... wherever possible. Sorry.)

(Scroll down for "TLDR" section.)

Applicable Definitions:

• • “Legitimate Uses” means (a) creating morph targets based on the Restricted Content, provided that any distribution of the morph targets will not include the original mesh connectivity information (for example, distribution in the form of data utilized with morph moving utilities or in a .CR2 file that references the original geometry, but no inclusion of the complete mesh); (b) creating texture templates derived from the Restricted Content to create new maps for either Restricted Content or Other Content; (c) creating tutorials, books, or other educational materials using images of the Program interface or Content for sale, distribution, public display, or public performance, provided such materials are intended to educate users as to use of the Program; (d) creating original Content for sale, distribution, public display, or public performance; (e) creating materials (e.g., shader trees) for use with either Restricted Content or Other Content; (f) creating characters or props based on Restricted Content in Proprietary File Formats, where the original (or modified) geometry, texture, or other Restricted Content files are not distributed with such characters or props; or (g) creating PoserPython scripts.
• • “Restricted Content” means all Content included with or part of the Program that is not Unrestricted Content, including without limitation mesh objects (geometry) in any format, files in Proprietary File Formats, images, materials, texture, transparency maps, Documentation, and Company’s proprietary data.

• -“Unrestricted Content” means Content included with or part of the Program that is specifically identified in the Documentation or listed in this EULA as Unrestricted Content. The following figure geometries and their associated textures are Unrestricted Content: low res male, low res female, medium res male, medium res female.

(Note: The "low"/"med" res" figures are "Unrestricted.")

....

Content License

*Subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA and your payment of the license fee, Company grants you a limited, personal, nontransferable and nonexclusive license (without the right to sublicense):
*a. To reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly display, and publicly perform the Unrestricted Content for any lawful purpose other than to create a product which is intended to compete with the Program or to create new content which is intended to compete with the Restricted Content.
*b. To prepare derivative works based upon the Restricted Content solely for Legitimate Uses and lawful uses.
*c. To reproduce, prepare derivative works based upon, distribute, publicly display, and publicly perform content you create using Restricted Content, provided that such use of Restricted Content shall be solely Legitimate Uses and lawful uses.
*Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing shall limit the Company’s right to independently create, develop, own, market, distribute, license, sublicense, import, export, sell, or otherwise exploit any content or materials similar to any derivative works based upon the Content.
You will use the Other Content in accordance with all applicable license terms imposed by the content's original creator.
You will not use, copy, modify, derive, distribute, transfer or sublicense the Restricted Content, the Unrestricted Content, or the Other Content or any copy, modification, derivation, or portion thereof, in whole or in part via any means or for any purpose whatsoever except as expressly permitted in this EULA or the Documentation.

Of Special Note: "You will not use, copy, modify, derive, distribute, transfer or sublicense the Restricted Content, the Unrestricted Content, or the Other Content or any copy, modification, derivation, or portion thereof, in whole or in part via any means or for any purpose whatsoever except as expressly permitted in this EULA or the Documentation. "

Now, back to "Legitimate Use:" -

• " a) ..creating morph targets..b) ...creating texture templates derived from ... (c) creating tutorials, books, or other educational materials using images...(d) creating original Content for sale (Edit Note: Note that this refers to using the Program, itself, to create content, not using its assets externally. In other words, this is in keeping with the program's "intended use.") (e) ..creating materials ... (f) creating characters or props based on Restricted Content in Proprietary File Formats, where the original (or modified) geometry, texture, or other Restricted Content files are not distributed with such characters or props; or .... (Note: Note hte use of "proprietary formats" only.) (g) creating PoserPython scripts...

The "Legitimate Use" section is based on the "intended use" of the program. See here, in the Program License:

• "...You will not use, copy, modify, derive, or transfer the Program or Documentation, or any copy, modification, derivation, or merged portion thereof, in whole or in part via any means or for any purpose whatsoever except as expressly permitted in this EULA or the Documentation. You will not relicense, sublicense, rent, lease, or lend the Program for third-party training, commercial time-sharing or service bureau use. You will not, and will not permit any third party to, reverse engineer, decompile, debug, disassemble, circumvent the security features of, or interfere with the normal functionality and operation of the Program for any reason whatsoever without the express prior written consent of the Company or except to the extent expressly permitted by applicable law. If the Program is an upgrade to a previous version of the Program, you must possess and maintain a valid license to such previous version in order to use the upgrade..."

Of special note:

• "You will not use, copy, modify, derive, or transfer the Program or Documentation, or any copy, modification, derivation, or merged portion thereof, in whole or in part via any means or for any purpose whatsoever except as expressly permitted in this EULA or the Documentation."

So, if it isn't specifically covered in the EULA, we must also consider the "Documentation" as a guiding document and the documentation includes "how to use Poser", which outlines its intended use.

There are no 3D Printing uses covered in the "Documentation" for Poser.

A Note on "Art" and copyright: The exact mesh "shape" of Poser figures or, theoretically, any other created 3D object, is covered under copyright law. It's the same as trying to copy a Mickey Mouse graphic and then "directly" using it in an unlicensed product - You can not do that. (And, Disney has Trademarked everything... So, it's scary even mentioning them in a sentence, let alone trying to paint Mickey stomping on kittens or something...)

• " Right to Prepare Derivative Works

• Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to pre pare, or to authorize someone else to create, an adaptation of that work. The owner of a copyright is generally the author or someone who has obtained the exclusive rights from the author. In any case where a copyrighted work is used without the permission of the copyright owner, copyright protection will not extend to any part of the work in which such material has been used unlawfully. The unauthorized adaption of a work may constitute copyright infringement."
  See here: http://copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

So, what we have here is a failure to communicate... :)

In other words, there are no 3D-Printing instructions in the Documentation, nor provided use for such, and there are no allowances for the creation of or, especially, the sale of 3D-Printed products in the EULA. In Copyright law, a "derivative" of a 3D art object must be licensed by the original creator. And, since a mesh's topology, how it is connected together and the relative distances of its constructed vertices is an "original work", specific allowances for distribution or sale must be made for "derivatives." We can see that Poser's EULA gives us specific "legitimate uses" for the program and accompanying assets that specifically cover "morphs", but only within proprietary format types. So, for instance, I could not sell a wavefront object model of V4's mesh that I had "derived" a new shape for, since I am specifically NOT allowed to do that with non-proprietary file formats. (There are many other clauses that deal with the distribution of the original mesh, however. So, that copyright protection is specifically covered on multiple fronts. I just used this as an example.)

We have a failure to communicate based upon the growing use of 3D-Printing and the lack of updated EULAs to cover that technology. Distributors, like Renderosity, have included 3D-Printing rules in their EULAs. But, it's a "gray area" whether or not they have legal license to do so for "derivative works" based on the geometry of meshes that are owned by, for instance, Smith Micro. So, for instance, if I bought a V4 Morph and then sought to reproduce it using a 3D printer, I might NOT be protected by Renderosity's license, since they may not have the right to extend a license for derivative works from Smith Micro products...

TLDR: There ain't no specific mention of 3D-Printing in the EULA or Documentation nor is it a function of the program, itself. Copyright Law clearly covers "derivative works" and only the copyright holder can license "derivative works." Nobody should be seeking to distribute any electronic 3D information in any form to a third-party nor should they be attempting to reproduce and sell "derivative" works without the express, and possibly specific (ie: Get a letter directly from the holder which gives a personal and non-transferable limited license) permission of the copyright holder.

Any artist in any medium should be a staunch defender of Copyright Law. It's not "all about the money." It's about "what's Right" with a capital "R." Whenever there is a question about copyright or trademark, a true artist should go straight to the source and ask specific permission for the use of the licensed product. Always. It not only keeps one out of court, but it protects one's own work from misuse and abuse.

PS - See here for a similar discussion on copyright and derivatives in the Copyright and Ethics forum: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2888502

(Again, sorry for the formatting. Thank Renderosity for choosing "Markdown" instead of a rational formatting element.)

My question would be how to get a 3d printing file into something that doesn't use a 3d file format, but probably a proprietary format specific the the maker of the printer. I'm not really into 3d printing as I'm not really interested in working plastic based materials. I've looked into CNC routers for woodworking, but they're a different animal since I would need the Z axis, which in machining is vertical, only to lift and drop the cutting head. For my use, the Z axis could be almost nonexistent and work perfectly. I've also looked into laser cutting, but they make 3d printers look cheap, very cheap.

Doric

What if you owned your own 3d printer?

@Morkonan: I'm aware of the EULA, it does not refer to 3D printing, neither does it refer to 2D rendering or printing thereof. My question "show me the sections" did not ask for "quote the EULA" but "quote the EULA secton that explicitely allows for...". Referring to your first EULA quote, Legit Use is understood as mentioned in a) to g) and 2D rendering is not part of that. And so on.

When the EULA is read closely, it could come to mind that "derived work" and alike are referring to actions and results that leave portions of the 3D mesh intact. When such is not the case, you're free to go.

@precisionXXX and @bevans84: I asked those questions too.

aRtBee posted at 10:59AM Tue, 01 September 2015 - #4225754

@Morkonan: I'm aware of the EULA, it does not refer to 3D printing, neither does it refer to 2D rendering or printing thereof. My question "show me the sections" did not ask for "quote the EULA" but "quote the EULA secton that explicitely allows for...". Referring to your first EULA quote, Legit Use is understood as mentioned in a) to g) and 2D rendering is not part of that. And so on.

"Legitimate Use" is also covered by the "Documentation" clause, which necessarily includes the product manual, which describes the program's features and its use. 2D rendering is explicitly understood as being a licensed and "Legitimate Use." (I'm interpreting your "g) and 2D rendering is not part of that" statement as being a request for a reference that shows it is, indeed, specifically "part of" the legitimate uses allowed for in the EULA.)

When the EULA is read closely, it could come to mind that "derived work" and alike are referring to actions and results that leave portions of the 3D mesh intact. When such is not the case, you're free to go.

(If I understand you correctly) According to the EULA, you can not distribute any of the original values (vertice order/coordinates) at all - You're right, there. All you can do regarding copyrighted geometry is construct "morphs" that only contain the delta values to be applied to the original geometry. But, further, you may only, according to the EULA, have limited license to provide these delta values in a manner which contains them within "proprietary" file formats.

For instance, a pz file can contain only delta (changed) values for vertices. This is a proprietary format and distributing morphs with it is specifically allowed under the EULA, since it can only be used by Poser and other legitimate software licensed to use the proprietary file format. However, wavefront object files can also contain only vertice deltas, however they are not specifically provided for in this way under the EULA, since Smith Micro has no legal license to claim copyright over wavefront object files.(They do mention third-party file extensions, somewhere, IIRC.) This is kind of a conundrum, since many morphs have been distributed by using wavefront object files as "morph targets," which are stripped of their actual mesh information and only containing delta values that apply to proprietary geometry. (ie: Opening one of these sorts of "deltas only" .obj files would not yield any geometry at all, since creation of the object relies on referenced geometry that is not present.)

According to the EULA, I could distribute vertice delta values for a morph, but only within proprietary (licenses owned by Smith Micro) formats and only if there was not one actual vertice included in the file. The point being - The resulting "derived work" is completely useless in any other 3D program besides Poser and without the references for the original copyrighted necessary geometry being included with it. In short - It's not possible to use any of the original geometry at all, in any format, in any other program for a use that is not specifically covered in the EULA or in the Documentation. (Manual) However, in the Manual, there are uses for third-party programs that are described and even companion apps one can use for the more popular packages and formats, so there is some "limited use" implied, primarily for creating morphs and rendering 2D images in third-party programs. This is how we are legally able to create morphs and export the figures, materials, uv maps, etc, to other formats for "limited use" (only allowed through the specific mention of such use in the Manual, as outlined by the EULA) in third-party applications. But, because of the distribution clause containing "proprietary formats", we can not distribute them, legally, in any format not specifically licensed by Smith Micro. So, even wavefront object files that contain nothing but the delta values can not, according to this interpretation, be distributed.

But, "common practices", like this, are also precedent and weakens the EULA if it also violates the EULA and as long as Smith Micro is aware of it and chooses not to enforce its own copyright... Though, proving such knowledge might difficult in court. :)

@precisionXXX and @bevans84: I asked those questions too.

On "Personal Use" - Copyright Law generally covers only the distribution, public viewing, and sale or transfer of copyrighted materials. If someone is using something for "personal use", copyright generally is "out of bounds", so long as the person also has a legitimate license to use the copyrighted material "for personal use." That's intrinsically and specifically implied in Poser's EULA and Manual. The only missing component is the explicit bridge between intellectual digital property rights and "material goods."

Because 3D printing is such a new craze, there is little documentation in the EULA/Manual to support "legitimate use" of copyrighted 3D objects being used, personally, by a user to create a true, material, "derivative work" for their own personal use. There are simply few provisions that could be stretched to cover such a use. In my opinion, this is something that would extend into the realm of general Copyright law. Because of the "transportable" nature of the file types, the allowances for alterations, and the inclusion of non-proprietary file types (wavefront object, .3ds, .lwo, etc) who's licenses are third-party and limited, and SM's allowances for personal use, personal use of an asset object for such purposes as 3D-printing is not specifically "forbidden" by the current documentation that I have. (PP2012) BUT, and here's the weird kicker.... I couldn't display it publicly, like in an art gallery or as part of a commercial decoration in a business. And, specifically, also under general copyright law, I could not legally give it to anyone for free nor could I sell it or even loan it to anyone.

In short: I could 3d-Print a Smith Micro figure and look at it in a closed, windowless, locked, room... within my non-legally-binding general interpretations of the EULA, Manual and Copyright Law. :)

Smith Micro needs to come out of the closet on this subject and address the issue, directly and explicitly, just as distributors/producers like DAZ3D and Renderosity have done. Further, they need to provide provisions for extending limited use licenses in order to create standards for "enforceable" copyright claims for their digital products that go beyond the old "boiler-plate" EULA design of "don't touch the .exe file." The community should not be in the position of having to answer their own questions on this topic.

it's not feasible to pay extra licensing fees to sell Katie fairy figurines at craft fairs. there is the cost of the plastic to consider. had all sorts of fairy christmas ornaments in my head.

MistyLaraPrincess posted at 9:19PM Fri, 04 September 2015 - #4226009

it's not feasible to pay extra licensing fees to sell Katie fairy figurines at craft fairs. there is the cost of the plastic to consider. had all sorts of fairy christmas ornaments in my head.

I agree with you. But, it's really something you should ask Smith Micro, directly. They need to start making policy statements on this issue that don't have a bunch of holes drilled into them. :)

looking at drawing planes cage feeling intimidated.

how hard could it be to model a human figure?
water tight so it 3d prints - (inner mouth? 3d printer prints toothy smiles?)

keep to quads so the subdivision works.
model one side then mirror so symmetry morphs work

posing bones in the lips the new thing?

do 3d printers use the same file formats? do they import obj?

imagine if poser could print directly to the printer?

MistyLaraPrincess posted at 8:48PM Sun, 06 September 2015 - #4226760

**> looking at drawing planes cage feeling intimidated.

how hard could it be to model a human figure?
water tight so it 3d prints - (inner mouth? 3d printer prints toothy smiles?)**

It's not difficult to model a human figure. It's difficult to model a human figure... well. :)

However, there are open-source human figures that you can use without licensing issues. Before, we were talking about Smith Micro figures, so that subject didn't come up. But, there are plenty of open source figures that you could use as a starting point for your own,custom, figure. (ie: For example, "Project Human" figures are open-source, somewhat. You'd have to look at their licensing documentation, as I'm not familiar with it.)

keep to quads so the subdivision works.
model one side then mirror so symmetry morphs work

These are not issues with any competent 3D modeling program. At least, not on their face. (That's a 3D joke...) The key to modeling something like a human figure, well, so that it sub-d's well and all that other good stuff has to do with "topology" or, how the geometry flows. This isn't critical for static 3D models and their topology can look like something an inebriated monkey made. But, for animation and for certain procedures, like certain forms of subdivision and smoothing, topology is critical. Topology may not matter one bit in 3D printing - I don't know.

posing bones in the lips the new thing?

Never heard of such in Poser. It seems counterintuitive. While lips are very dynamic and full of expression, rigging them with standard "bones" or something wouldn't likely yield good results - Our lips don't have bones in them. It'd take a bunch of bones to mimic the muscles that form the lip's expressions, I would think.

do 3d printers use the same file formats? do they import obj?

imagine if poser could print directly to the printer?

Most 3D printers do accept the Wavefront object file format. That is such a universal standard for basic object geometry that I don't think there is a 3D app that deals specifically with 3D objects that wouldn't accept it. If anything, there'd be a converter or script for them.

AFAIK, 3D printers, internally or externally, convert the 3D mesh to their own internal data sets. A 3D mesh is, after all, only a representation that is meant to be presented in a 2D format ( a screen). However, because of their construction, they are certainly portable to a 3D environment, if one can translate them correctly.

If you can not get licensing from Smith Micro, all is not lost! Look around the 'net! There are plenty of free 3D objects and figures out there and, even if they have limited license, you could certainly contact the artist and ask for permission, right? Or, grab one with an open license, morph it, using a 3D program or even Poser, export it and print it out, yourself.

For instance, here's MakeHuman's answer on "selling" - http://www.makehuman.org/can_i_sell_models_created_with_makehuman.php

It's a "yes." :)