Penguinisto posted at 12:19PM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357492

So one segment has what you need, the other does not. Figure out why, and you've solved a lot of issues.

Vendors have told us why - they are expensive, and they don't feel the ROI will pay for it.

Morphs without skin textures is pointless.

This however, crosses a line between the casual end-user and the prosumer (full pros would have most of their stuff and mods homemade anyways unless there's a time crunch).

In the Poser 4/5 era, that required prosumer skills - but not in 2019. Buy a copy of Texture Transformer (for the price of a character) and click a couple of boxes - done. Need that skin texture converted for use with Superfly? Download EZ-Skin (free), install, click 2 boxes - done.

First: Forget DS here - I'm not trying to sell you on that app and our opinions will always differ.

DAZ can't sell me on the app and its free. It is very poorly coded (everything the user interacts with is on the same thread), and is designed for 1 hardware/software type (Windows boxen w/Nvidia graphics) It runs poorly on Windows and worse on a 12 core/24 thread MacPro w/96 GB of ram.

Let's talk Poser. If something is missing...

Low level scripters have stepped up in the past and delivered (PhilC, Netherworks, Dimension3D, etc), If you can script in Python, you can develop add-ons. You don't need to hire a 6 figure programmer - hire a Python code monkey and HAVE A CLEAR SCOPE OF WORK. Because at some point, you have to shoot the coder and get the product into production.

So yeah - stuff that you want (and that I want!) won't be present - be it features, functionality, or assets. Note that none of this solves the question of what makes a good figure. Let's table it for a moment though.

But it does allow me a wider choice of potential figures - one mesh means I am limited to what that small group of vendors decided to sell - I prefer choice, especially when 95% Caucasians isn't working for me.

So, if Dawn were indeed the V4-Killer, why isn't it the defacto-default, and why is it not the most dominant Poser-exclusive supported item in the Marketplace? Why is world+dog chasing the new-shiny with LaFemme right now? Finally, (and most importantly) which one will Rendo/Poser pick to put in as default w/ the app?

You weren't here when Dawn was released - I was (and bought over 95% of the content that was released for it here). She wasn't well supported for the following reasons:

1. She was released with only a starter set of morphs - At the time, most Poser character vendors were dial-spinners - they don't sculpt out figures in Zbrush (they lacked the skills and the software). So, they didn't have much to work with.

2. Chris decided that making that stupid horse was more important than building out a full set of head, body, and expression morphs. That was a major (if not the) major factor. The Hivewire figures now have a very robust set of morphs, but the damage is already done (here - there is a fairly robust ecosystem over at hivewire).

3. Vendors get a better split if they sell their content over at Hivewire. See above.

4. Most of the stuff made for Dawn here wasn't very good - (Sturgeon's Law - 90% of everything is crap ). Content here was mostly built for Poser 6, and didn't use any features in Poser 9. Many vendors were adamant that they were not going to change their workflow and prepare for a brave new Vickyless world. Content sold at Hivewire was built with Poser 9 in mind - it was better.

5. 'Rosity forum mods at the time allowed Genesis vendors to run wild spreading F.U.D. At the same time, Poser vendors were whining that they didn't like her shoulders (aesthetically, not over a technical issue). They also expected V4 levels of sales from day 1 - which was delusional, since there wasn't enough content released to get that level of sales. Every post-V4 figure release devolves into a Waiting for Godot situation - Customers won't invest in a figure if there is no content, and vendors won't build content until a large portion of the customer base has bought the base figure. Nowadays, we buy the new figure, if the vendors choose not to support it, we use the tools in Poser (and add-ons) to use that figure, and future vendor sales are lost.

6. 'Rosity didn't exactly encourage vendors to leave V4 behind. 'Rosity nailed their colors to V4 - smart short term - dumb long term.

When I finally get off my butt and buy Poser, it's prolly the first figure I'll reach for because I know, trust, and respect the hell out of Chris and his work.

Now I understand why you have no understanding of Poser and it's tool set. It isn't Poser 4.

That said, I don;t think it's the Vicky-killer. Given Rendo's recent purchase, coupled with their need to direct the masses to their marketplace (and not Chris' enterprise over at Hivewire), I suspect that Dawn will get the cold(er) shoulder pretty soon. LaFemme will be an easier purchase for Rendo (or PE? Who knows? The tea leaves say LaFemme, though.) I'm betting that's what ends up being the Next Default in Poser.

Nice strawman. Poser doesn't need a V4-killer (because no one will ever agree to what those killer features are, much less what makes a good figure). What we really need is an easy way to move shoes between figures. That is the last frontier.

Whatever figure is chosen - V4 (and content made for her) isn't going away. This belief that a new figure will suddenly expand the Poserverse isn't based in reality. That belief comes from 2nd tier vendors desire to recreate Oct 2007 - and that ain't happening. Poser users are no longer totally at the mercy of vendor whims and "creativity" Poser users simply embrace and extend any figure to any level they choose - vendors are no longer the gatekeepers and they really resent that.

I'm betting there was more than a little behind-the-scenes going on to keep Dawn tamped-down a bit. Nothing blatant, but competition is competition. I assign no judgement either way, but I'm not going to ignore market realities, either.

I didn't address it for a reason - that can of worms doesn't need opening (here - it is addressed over there. In any event, water over the bridge.)

LF has the same support as Pauline (and mostly by the same vendors that have gotten behind other post-V4 figures). if it wasn't for Karanta, it would already be DOA as far as clothing, for example - the vendors are not embracing her.

Something has to be default. Something has to come with the application to get folks started. Some one figure type (that is, one adult female, one adult male, one kid mesh that can be boy or girl) has to be the one which comes out of the box.

Vendors and customers aren't dumping everything for a better mousetrap, because no one can agree what is a better mousetrap. We have over a decade of empirical evidence of this.

I know about the past - in the earliest days, Poser had megatons of support for Posette. Then Vicky showed up, and all the support started shifting towards it. Eventually, the default figures has zero support, Vicky 3 began to domainte, and then Vicky 4 sucked all the oxygen out of the room (sure, there were figures that were up-and-comers, and niche figures which did okay in their own right, but let's be honest here - the vast, vast majority of stuff was made for one figure, and one figure alone... Victoria.)

And in 2019 it doesn't matter who content was made for originally. V4 and G content is easily switched between the G figures in DS and all content is easily switched between all figures in Poser - but notice - both products have robust (although differing) methods of moving content between figures. That is because neither flagship program storefront can survive with what has been made for just 1 figure.

V4 was a significant upgrade in capabilities compared to V3 and Sydney. But that wasn't what sold V4 to the masses. What sold V4 to the masses was every storefront was flooded with content. Most of it sold at a loss. Most of the content sold the 1st couple of months was less than $5 (I got receipts). None of the post-V4 figures came with a semi-useful set of clothing on launch - nor was any of it sold as a loss-leader.

Sure, there will always be other figures. There will always be competing figurines, and it may even be a healthy competition. BUT... only one figure will get front-and-center promotion, attention, and the majority of vendor support. Trying to deny that is like trying to deny the most obvious fact (and complaint) in the last two decades of Poserdom.

If we were still using Poser 4 that would be a valid argument - but we aren't. People using post-V4 figures tend to embrace new features. Nobody buying or selling at hivewire are worrying too much about any other post-V4 figure. The majority of Poser vendors here are still supporting V4 as their main breadwinner. Any demands to change that falls on deaf ears.

Now, vendor support... It is and is not important - depending on skill level, time, and creativity (or lack thereof.) The Prosumer crowd (/me waves at Wolf) won't care - they'll make what they need, and do what they want. The Newbie crowd? They're the ones doing all the buying (and downloading if it's a freebie). They're the ones whose first contact is with the stuff that came in-the-box. Everyone in-between? If the default figure is awesome and well-supported, and is exclusive (esp. in features) to Poser, then guess what application the user is going to stick with?

But that isn't what has been happening here for the past decade. In 2004, when I bought Poser 5, there was a very, very wide variety of content available for it. That is no longer the case. I was sold on Poser because I could make any scene in my head - in 2019, we can make pin up art, with early 20's Caucasians - because that is the only thing being made now.

Pushing on with that thought..... If I am NOT a Caucasian, why would I buy Poser or DS? There is very little that would fit me. Nothing but white girls, as far as the eye can see. All wearing trashy outfits.

Vendor support for a figure is frickin' HUGE. Sure, there's WW/XD, there's all kinds of other conversion tools out there... but unless you're a crusty old fart who has used Poser ever since it came on floppies (and when everyone complained about titties+temples over NNTP in alt.binaries.poser), you're not going have those extra tools, or a workflow to make efficient use of them.

This is like someone telling a soldier today that they should do things the way the Army of the Potomac did it in the American Civil War. The workflow you remember is gone. Tools are either built in (fitting room or WW), the price of an outfit (Creator's Toybox, Batch Material Converter, Hair Control System, etc, etc, etc), or are free (Ez-Skin).

The fitting room is literally just a few (4) clicks (this applies to everything - it is just a couple of clicks). Most legacy figures are already available weight mapped, download a file, install, and go. Upping the subdivision is simply clicking a check box and entering the level of division you want (and your system memory can support). Adding control chips is a few clicks. The knowledge level necessary to this is just the desire to do it - no Poser-Fu required. Everything is literally a couple of clicks away (which is yet another reason that getting everyone to buy into a new figure is so hard). It is SO easy to decouple content from figures.

I get the accessory and clothing diversity angles,

The way you dismiss it, you clearly don't. If I want to make anything outside of pin up art - my choices are:

1. Convert legacy content to a new figure.
2. Continue to use legacy figures.
3. Import/convert content from DS.

My choice is Yes. I do all three, based on what I need. Genesis 1 still has the best non-humans, and the G figures provide kids, and skins to harvest (and doesn't that sound creepy?) The USS Enterprise has 460 positions on it - can't live by 6 foot tall white folks only.

No one has ever bought Poser for the figures (ever since Vicky 1 came out), because DAZ, Curious Labs, EGISys, and Smith Micro all semi-conspired to force that issue a very long time ago.

Nice strawman. Zygote (now DAZ) was set up for the sole purpose of making content for Poser. The Poser team focused on Poser, Daz made content. Poser figures were designed to show the capabilities of the program - which is why we see new Poser figures with every new version and Daz figures in 3d Porn. Daz developed DS because of concerns about the viability of Poser's various parent companies over the years. Which is amusing when you consider that the folks that made the Poser/DS ecosystem great (and Steve Kondris) are all gone, and DAZ has been sold a couple of times too.

They can keep the marketplace open for competition (because only a fool turns down moar monay from continuing to sell Genesis stuff on the side), but I strongly suspect that their main focus is going to be on Poser, and stuff for Poser, and a stronger symbiosis between the two.

They still have to figure out how to:

1. Get vendors on board with a post-V4 figure (so far, no joy).

2. Get customers to abandon low priced content for (relatively) expensive content - all while not showing why it is a good idea (No one has ever shown how the newer figures "bend better". LF doesn't bend any better than Sasha-16.

There are a LOT of fools in the DS/Poserverse. - DAZ was adamant that the G figures would never get Poser support. A short while later a DSON importer arrived. Shortly thereafter, they quietly added Poser Companion Files to nearly every Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 product sold at DAZ. The didn't do that out of the goodness of their black hearts - they did it because there aren't enough folks buying DS content to keep the lights on in Utah. Likewise Poser fans have yammered for years about getting the golum into Poser - a free script will do that, no muss, no fuss - a few clicks in DS, followed by a few clicks in Poser - G3 and G8 content is now Poser native - now go make tacky pin-up art.

Rendo/Poser's focus is likely to be to find a way to stop this endless cycle from happening... with one set of figures. Figures that have a roadmap, that have tools for vendors to build against, that have all the advantages that flavor-of-the-month does not have. But, they gotta start somewhere, and that means either building something completely from scratch, adapting the (because historically) craptastic default figures they have now, or buy something kickass and go with that as a base for future growth.

Later figures weren't bad - they simply weren't supported - don't confuse Don and Judy with Paul and Pauline.

Their future depends on new users. On growth. On capturing users form the competition.

That model isn't working for DAZ - if it was, they wouldn't be putting most of their content on sale at 70% off at the drop of a hat. If they were a stock, I'd short them - they are showing classic signs of a company with cash flow problems.

I first slid into this world just barely after turning 30. I turned 50 this week... Fifty. Yeah, I have way more disposable income than a 30-year-old, and I already know the basics more than enough to be fully proficient w/ Poser.latest in less than a dedicated weekend, but Rendo does not want to make crusty old loudmouths like us their target demographic.

Young pup - much like Jon Snow, you know nothing. You have no understanding of the lighting system, the materials system, or the fitting room. Your prior knowledge extends to the rooms that haven't been updated since Poser 5. (Cloth room, Hair room) None of the tricks and shortcuts from the Poser 4/5 era are valid with Poser 11.

You have an entirely new workflow to learn - that will take more than a dedicated weekend (you'll need that just to learn the interface that was redone for Poser 8) - hell, it will take you weeks just to pick up the lighting system (The P4 lighting system was culled a few years ago - the code is gone). Materials - same thing (Do not fear the compound node - it is good). The good news is that converting your content to use either firefly or superfly is just 2 clicks away via (free) EZ-Skin - the hard work is already done.

'Rosity should focus on folks that spend money - newbies or grognards. That 30 year old will treat any Poser/DS digital asset like they treat any other digital asset (they will steal it via file sharing).

Most of the users and vendors are of our demographic - they aren't making anything for the kids. Poser/DS also requires a real computer, not a laptop (ask me how I know), which will also eliminate a lot of folks, because they are too cheap to spend a couple hundred dollars on a dedicated machine. The more you try to do, the more horsepower you need. It is real easy to talk yourself into building a render farm for your home (cheaper than a new video card - ask me how I know) while using a workstation as your main machine - (96Gb of ram is a wonderful thing).

You may have been around a couple more years than me (I do remember you from back in the day) - but you certainly haven't been keeping any of the lights on in either Utah or Tennessee. I stopped tracking expenditures when I crossed the $10,000 barrier a few years back. 'Rosity (and DAZ) are very interested in what I want to buy.

Okay, I promised I wasn't going to do this comparison stuff, but... the Genesis figures allow me to use stuff made for Genesis versions 1-8, and (with an add-on script) Vicky 4 as well. It takes literally one-to-three clicks in a popup window to fit old well-made crap onto the latest-and-greatest figure, no matter the morphs, with no poke-through, and it scales perfectly in 99% of clothing and hair. Part of this is projection-mapping/collision-detection, but a big part of is is that the target figure is a lineage of one very well-maintained mesh/topo combo.

There is nothing wrong with comparing DS figures with Poser figures, perfectly valid. If you are in 3d hobbyist art, it is pretty much your only choices.

I have those scripts - they will cost you about $500 for all of them (ask me how I know). They are rarely discounted. And most of the time, they even work. The G figure is fine - right up until you do a TCO analysis - then you take them out of your cart (unless they are at least 60% off).

Cool part is, Poser can have that too! Well, they can have it if they go to a curated set of default figures that Rendo in turn puts focus on...

What is even cooler is that Poser ALREADY has those tools - which you would know if you had a current copy of Poser - and they work will ANY figure, not just one. Most are free, some are the cost of an outfit, and some are built into the program.

Default is default. Make a solid default, and it will grow fairly decently. Supply enough stuff (morphs, basic clothing, hair, etc) to get them started.

You have been away. That has been done multiple times already - vendors will ALWAYS find a reason NOT to support a new figure - and that reason will NEVER be applied to the figure they do support. It is what it is. Good news is that I can use any figure I like, and dress it in any clothing I like - my choice, not the vendor's choice.

Oh, and one big item: make an in-app converter that gets all (or at least most) of the Genesis and Vicky stuff to fit onto the new figure with a minimum of effort. And yes, this can be done.

Yes, it can be done - There is 1 (free) script to convert DS native content to Poser native content, then off to the fitting room. Vendors will tell you it isn't good enough to make content for sale, but for an end-user, it is more than good enough.

1. General incentive: Rendo can do a 80-20 split (80% in the merchie's favor) for all items which support $newFigure. Do that until it grows sufficiently to stand on its own.

2. Specific incentives. Pay for a few select top-notch vendors to make a basic variety of stuff for your new figure. Poser has done this before, with varying degrees of success, but note that this will only work if the figure doesn't suck.

3. Get vendors in on the new figure early. Let them beta-test while they make stuff for it.

There's lots of ideas and methods they can employ to get their figure out there...

The rest is a list of stuff I perfectly agree with. :)

1. Won't keep the lights on - because that isn't going to get people to give up the figures they like - especially when the vendors insist on making the exact same products for a new figure.

2. They do that (usually by buying the content).

3. That has also been done.

I have always recommended going with a Kickstarter type funding mechanism, but much like anything new, vendors here aren't interested in it.