Razor, Torquinox- thanks for the replies. I'm certainly not trying to start a war, I'm just trying to find tools that will work for what I want to do. Poser is problematic for the reasons offered above, and I'm wondering if Daz is less so- but let me be more specific about what I want to do: I'm developing a graphic novel project, and on the output end I'm looking for non-photorealistic rendering so I can produce a noirish comic book style. I have a very limited budget (post-Poser, zero....) so AutoDesk products are out. I want a practical workflow, so I want the renders to require an absolute minimum of post production work. I can already draw reasonably well, my goals in going 3D are to speed up production and make characters more consistent, especially from odd angles. So, one possibility is to make really crappy renders that I can use as drawing reference or paint-over- and I can pretty much do this in Poser. But, the amount of front-end, pre-production overhead is considerable even for crappy renders, so this may not speed up production much. It would be nice to be able make renders that are useful right out of the renderer. I can, of course, take a dive into Daz and figure it out for myself, but I ask in the forum because I don't really want to spend several weeks arriving at the same place I am with Poser, so if anyone can advise me, it might save a lot of time and effort better spent elsewhere.