Hi Scott, Thanks for the link and the information. I understand all of your points, thanks. Changing to XZY joint order completely fixed my problems with the shoulder; a couple of minor tweeks to the fall-off zones and I'm set. I was expecting problems with conforming clothing, but it seems to work fine. So far I haven't found a down side to the new shoulder joint order. The default order is pretty close to useless for any pose that has front-back near 90. I'm surprised that folks can get anything done with the default joint order. As far as axis names go, I just with they would display an axis tripod, as in MAX, so you can see tell which axis to use without trial and error. Any idea why the default fall-off zones are so large? For example, the zones for the shoulder extend way past the elbow. Cal