Thanks Luxxeon, that's what I wanted to know. I was searching all over for a way to crease vertex without more geometry and then I realized there just wasn't one. So I'm guessing you used edge crease on that model in the other thread but if you didn't use support loops and need at least 3 edges to crease a vertex into a point with edge crease, then how did you make the points on that other model? I only see two edges connected to those points. Another question while I have your ear is about that sharp edge thing. You gave sharp edges to two edges in that example, but I don't see any change to that object at all. I know you said it only works for smooth shading but what good is that really? I mean what would be a practical use for it then? Sorryu for all the questions and thank you to everyone who tried to answer. And thanks for your help luxxeon! I used a few of your freebies years ago and they were great models.