Well, I'm no expert, but I wasn't seeing any of the wireframes in my top and side views, or even in that render window. Then when Mike told me what to uncheck so that I could see my models when I did an underwater scene, I noticed that I could then see everything above the horizon line??, but nothing below, I went back and looked the other options and I think I unchecked clip at ground plane or something like that. Anyway, I can see my wireframes now. I am running Vue 4.01 on windowsXP. Kevin