Your right, Im being negative to bryce from my own fustration to create anything useful in it. I will mention though that Rhino is $200 for a student licence but max is way outa range of mortal users. (I use max at work during lunch, after hours and umm anytime i can find to goof off-sneak the models out on floppy usually) Only trying to point out that after messing with bryce for sometime, i stopped trying to go beyond landscapes which bryce is superb with. I ONLY render in Bryce and love the program for that, and am not trying to make bryce look like its useless since everything ive got (including 42inx60in photo paper prints - ummm i also sneaked in at work on their 42in hp800ps plotter hehe $$$) are Bryce only renders. Sorry if ive offended any pure bryce people in the previous post - no Bryce exe's or dll's were killed or intentionally harmed while typing it. Got only one pic easily accessible (sorta) at the moment: http://www.3dcafe.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000381.html The link in the first msg should still work and take you to delphi bryce forum - pic guest if it prompts for a password.