O.K. guys, you sound like you know what your talking about, but poor Jim has no idea exactly what is ment by "normals" Are there two types? If Poser doesn't use normal information how come I can build stuff that is "inside-out", I'm sore you know what I mean - I thought normals controled this? If I recall correctly, I have the "export normals" box unchecked in Habaware, but if I flip the polygons in Max it does fix the inside-out items. I also notice that Max and Poser treat the inside out part differently - if you mirror a mesh Max likes it but Poser treats it as inside out, unless you flip it, which makes Poser happy but now Max thinks it is inside out. The only way I know to fix this is flip it outside Max and bring it back in as a OBJ or just attach it back to what it was mirrored from, which makes both programs happy. Incidently, I just looked, none of my stuff seems to have vn lines, just v, vt and f, so is the second type of nomal the one in the f lines?