thanks jay however, this isn't a tool settings effect its something that has a graduation (greysale) as part of multi step process my example is a half assed, manual, time consuming arrrangement of dots that lacks the clean mathematical precision that this technique gives with complex forms (not to mention 100 X quicker). I've caught some of it when its been performed by one guy that viewed myself as one of his competators so they refused to show it to me when I politely asked ( imagine that!) like I've said, its an "old trick" that I've not found any tutorals on... if someone knows how to acomplish this effect and would not like to post it I'll be more than happy to reply privately -thanks