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Marque, Here's a render of Posette, Vicki2, Natalia, Dina and Cherry (I am showing her because I did some morphs on her that I think give her neck/shoulders a more natural line). All have their arms bent at 85, except Vicki, whose arms are at 82 because at 85 they go through her body. As you can see, all the figures have the problem of high arm creases, except Vicki. But Vicki's upper arms are curved unaturally in toward her body while her shoulders are sticking out. I guess I shouldn't have said Vicki has that problem. What I meant was, in order to fix that problem, she has the other distortion of curved upper arms and shoulders that stick out too far. While I agree that I have never seen anyone with arm creases that high, neither have I ever seen anyone whose upper arms curve in like that. Believe me, I've tried to find a joint parameter setting that solves both problems and haven't been able to come up with it yet. After MANY, MANY hours. Ask Dan. :-) In the end, Dan and I felt that the crease was more acceptable than the weirdly curved in upper arms. Purr, That pose with arms like that is deceptively simple looking. I've found that the hardest thing in Poser is to get hands up to the face like that. It's because it involves extreme bends which Poser just doesn't handle well. Try using the collars more in the pose. Do a little twist and move them forward. I've found you can move Dina's collars more than you are probably used to. Diane