With experimentatin, it seems to be the joint parameters that are wrong (OK OK I know you just TOLD me that, but I'm stubborn, I never learn something until I discover it for myself...my bad) the problem seems to be that phi builder invents it's own xyz or zxy whatever that is, which tells it which axis seems to be primary (not sure if I got that right) and I'm not sure how to read that out from another obj file, does it really matter what they are set to? Then I've got to set the joints, is there any method behind this, or just a general guess as to where it should be?