thahks everybody, i saw the real world bryce book yesterday at border's bookstore, and i wanted it bad. but i wanted to know what all you folks had to say so i held off. i'm glad i did. i ordered it from amazon and saved about $20. i looked at the shamms book... i think it was "advanced bryce" or something like that, but the reviews said it used a lot of other expensive software and plug-ins, so i bailed on that. thanks, zspider