kieraw, Thanks for the link, that's really usefull, (and I can forsee it will be a great time sink too) it's just a shame they don't go all the way back to 1994 :) As for the pfennig, 'tis sadly, all but history, I've still got four 1949 10 pfennig bits in my pocket, (got a mate who collects them :) but after that we're stuck with cents, which is the worst of both worlds, a French word with American connotations :P later jb