I don't like frames becuase I often have difficulty bookmarking the page I actually need to get too. I can understand a sitemanager wanting to herd viewers through the main part of the site, but I have a pokey dialup connection and really don't want to spend 10 minutes waiting for the big splash screen to load in, or having my system bomb when it can't find the latest nifty plugin I won't clog my system up with. The frames/no-frames argument is eternal. I treat it like the mac/PC debate and ignore it. It's a religous thing. Flash/noflash creeps under that too. My 2nd biggest complaint with sites is IE only sites. I don't like IE - and use it as little as possible. There are great sites I don't go to because they won't work with netscape. And you guys both need to take a deep breathe and chill out. This is not a design competition - and there is no one true way. Rejoice in difference. Okay? :) Lyrra