"but 3D is an alien world" it is for all of us when we start out Thomas :o) i think the human brain can't get to grips with having debth on a 2d screen but after a while you get used to it, mind i still get my x,y and z's mixed up between apps :o).....word is pcformat www.pcformat.co.uk is giving away a version of cinema 4d (SE i think) next month might be worth getting a hold of a copy as its pretty good app to start out with .....Steve