Hi guys thanks to phil c's answer to my question last week I went hunting for a demo modeler and found out that amapi 5 is free with digit mag here in the uk next month. Idownloaded the 30 day trial of amapi 6.1 and have driven my wife mad this weekend made one or two errors in construction but have an acceptable sea turtle now i'll try to post it when i've texture maped it if i can figure how to post. thanks for all the help Dave