Either I'm a complete idiot or those body handle thingies are a useless waste of time. I can't get them to do anything except mess up whatever position I was trying to put the model in. And how the heck do you work those stupid egyptian skirt thingies? The hip poses just fine but the legs won't pose worth a damn no matter what I try. (and no, I'm not trying to conform them, I know they don't conform, but they don't take the damn pose either). I'm gonna give up and put that and the body handles on the same list as the lights, magnets and the grouping tool - the "things that don't work for me and just make me want to throw the computer out the window so I'm not gonna even bother with them" list. Kate (who is feeling slightly ripped off at the moment but will get over it)

Dont feel too bad, you just described some of my damnations, I gave up on the handles long ago and just use the dials. After 2 months I'm just coming to grips with the lights, suggest selecting different sets and experiment by moving them individually to see what they do. When you've cooled down and finished pouting,you can come back out of the corner.Remember "Nil desperandum bastardum carborundum" or loosely translated, "Dont let the B.... grind you down" Tommy.

I don't blame you Kate, I give up too. ;)

HI I thourght it was "nil iligium Carborundom" (appologies for spelling) this is the unofficial moto of the british civil service Dave

Unfortunately, I had the exact same problems with the body handles on the Egyptian Skirt . . . I thought it was just me . . .

I am glad(sort of ) to see other people getting as frustrated as I am. I read the tech tips and I still can't get the knack of those handles(and they sounded so easy to use)hell I still have problems with the mat files applying and don't get me started on the eyebrow trans thing, when I least expect it nothing I do gives me,or rather my models, nice eyebrows. Oh and Kate I understand completely wanting to toss the computer out the window(sewing machines affect me the same as computers)More than once I have wanted to toss mine. Marge

Well it's nice to know I have company in the corner here. =) I tell ya, I've got a whole loooong list of stuff that leaves me scratching my head and going "Huh?" Been like that ever since Poser 4 was released. Magnets, grouping tool, squeezed morphs, uvs files, body handles, mat poses, all kinds of stuff that I've given up trying to figure out and just run screaming in the other direction when I see 'em now g (ok, I can get mat poses to work, but how the heck do you MAKE them? The instructions confuse me more when I'm done than I was when I started) I seriously think that I'm just Poser impaired or something. Hmmm... wonder if there's a support group for that? ;-) Oh, and Marge, I've never wanted to toss my sewing machine out the window, but don't get me started on that blankety-blank serger from Hell that lives in the sewing room. =)

Oh yes, the Poser-Impaired, LOL! I too have been hoping to find some sort of thing. ;) Now, the grouping tool and the magnets, I understand, but yeah, those MAT files.... I think they're just some form of magic, and a well-guarded secret. I still can't remember the origin of them, as they just seemed to suddenly appear out of nowhere. One day there were no MAT poses, the next day, they were everywhere. Maybe you need to subscribe to some special news group or something shrug Mike (who does not yet have a secret MAT pose decoder ring)

I'm still waiting for my squeezed morphs decoder ring. I cannot for the life of me get those darn things to work. I always get the "incorrect number of vertices" message with those.

Many of the unusual aspects of Poser 4 can be tricky. It took me a very long time to accept transmaps. I was just determined to post-render instead. However, I've gotten accustomed to them. You can do a search here in the Tutorials section. I know that there is at least 1 magnet tutorial. MAT files are a pain in the ass to create. There's a freestuff program called MAT pose edit that may help you out and a python script or two if I'm not mistaken. Wouldn't it be nice to have a plugin to export an object or character as a mat pose (with checkbox options) :/ There's a morph squeeze freestuff program as well. You have to run it in compatibility mode if you're using windows 2000/xp.

I tried the magnet tutorials. Couldn't even manage to do that right. None of them worked for me, no matter how carefully I followed the instructions. Part of the problem is the Poser interface. Using those darn trackballs and dials rather than a four window view drag and drop and rotate is what kills me. I just don't have enough control with those balls to get things lined up properly. I dearly hope Poser 5 has a more user friendly interface, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. ;-)

Jaager's well-intentioned advice just serves to illustrate the problem. Most people (like myself) who are attracted to using Poser do so to avoid the kind of internal tinkering that he suggests. We bought a program that was supposed to offer a certain level of transparent ease-of-use. Instead, now we're supposed to suddenly dig into scripts with text editors and/or re-write code.

I think that all this arcane, programmer-level tinkering will some day become obsolete. The truly successful 3D program of the future will be the one that makes all of this stuff INVISIBLE, has a GREAT user interface, gets out of the way and just lets you create.

Still waiting....

JJsemp

Kate, The ProPack gives you up to 4 windows, your choice, and the dials give you absolute control. I'm going to get Anton's Egyptian stuff this week (still doing taxes, though, mumble, mumble grumpety, grump). After that is out of the way, I'll feel like tackling body-handles. I really want to know how he is doing that, since there are ideas in my head for how to use the technique. Note: as an employee, I'd been given a sickly computer to work on. I was heading out the door to get my 100' extension cord from the trunk so that it would still be plugged in when I tossed it out of the window and into the pool 2 stories down. By the time I got back upstairs, they had replaced the beast. Would I really have carried that CPU through my producer's office and out his window? You've met me! Carolly

MAT-Poses aren't as difficult as it looks. Make a copy of the CR2- or PP2-File which you wants to create MAT-Poses. Then open the copy in a Editor like WordPad. Scroll to the end where the material-settings rests. Then delete everything except the lines showed below: ***************************************** { Version { Number 4.01 } figure { material Fabric { KdColor 1 1 1 1 KaColor 0 0 0 1 KsColor 0.00779736 0.00779736 0.00779736 1 textureMap "C:DatenPoser 3DPoser 4RuntimetexturessharkeyStuffMichael_ClothesCasual_Jacket_Texture.jpg" 0 0 } material Buttons { KdColor 1 1 1 1 KaColor 0 0 0 1 KsColor 0.937255 0.937255 0.937255 1 textureMap "C:DatenPoser 3DPoser 4RuntimetexturessharkeyStuffMichael_ClothesCasual_Jacket_Texture.jpg" 0 0 } material Collar { KdColor 1 1 1 1 KaColor 0 0 0 1 KsColor 0 0 0 1 textureMap "C:DatenPoser 3DPoser 4RuntimetexturessharkeyStuffMichael_ClothesCasual_Jacket_Texture.jpg" 0 0 } material Pocket { KdColor 1 1 1 1 KaColor 0 0 0 1 KsColor 0 0 0 1 textureMap "C:DatenPoser 3DPoser 4RuntimetexturessharkeyStuffMichael_ClothesCasual_Jacket_Texture.jpg" 0 0 } } } ********************************************* As you see there where only Objects-colors and texture, while deleted the unneeded Bump- and TransMap-settings. Which also can be placed here. Then just save it without giving it a new name, otherwise it will be saved as a txt-file. Put it in one of your Pose-Folder and just select the thing which should receive the new texture. What i now all the times do, is to make a render with the new texture applyed and save the whole thing oin the pose-folder under anew name. Then i dlete the new saved PZ2-file and just rename the RSR-File similar to that one i created as the MAT-Pose-file in the editor. Now i cross my fingers that the tabs wont distort when sending the message. SHARKEY

I know, I know. It's all easier than it looks. I just wanna gripe a bit, ok? Had a frustrating night trying to get the new toys to work right, and now I have to go beat PhilC over the head until he learns how to do a proper texture template (very big evil grin) cuz if he had a proper template instead of that fuzzified .jpg for his romantix outfit I would be making this totally awesome image that's screaming to get out of my head instead of fiddling with the template so I can use the flood fill to make my textures and... And yes, Carolly, I do believe you would have tossed that machine out the window. ;-)

Using poser at a basic level is simple - but once you get 'under the hood' that it starts getting obscure. And of course the truly slick poser wizards keep wandering back in and saying "look at what we can do now!" I read the forums just to keep up to date - the whole MAT Mor pose thing, ERC morphs, easypose - the end products all make life easier, but the actual process is still beyond most of us. And you know, thats okay :) Most artists can't make their brushes or paints or canvas - but they can use 'em just fine. The people here are pushing Poser past anything that even the designers thought possible - you have to expect a few bumps when you're shoving back the frontier. :) Lyrra

Beg pardon, I misunderstood the intention here.

I can't speak as to the Egyptian stuff, but I did get the spywear, which also has the body handles. I have discovered that tedium can be a great learning aid. For example, having loaded the spywear hair bob, I went through each body handle and tried each dial that related to movement. Did it look like it changed things? If not, I tried a larger number, or a negative number, or clicked through the various cameras. Obviously, if you have an image in your head already, this approach is going to be frustrating...but at least it would help for the NEXT image you have in your head;-)

Just to be clear, I didn't want to seem to be complaining in my previous message. I'm extremely grateful for helpful folks like Jaager, Sharkey, Phil C., and many, many others here at Renderosity (i.e. the Poser "wizards") for squeezing every last drop of magic out of this little program. Without them, we'd all be in big trouble and Poser wouldn't be anywhere near as much fun.

Jjsemp

I think the most frustrating aspect of all this is that I know I'm a reasonably intelligent person yet, as simple as some of this stuff appears to be I simply cannot grasp it no matter how hard I try. Jaager, don't you EVER stop being helpful, you hear me? I'm not the only one who looks forward to your explanations and directions when faced with a problem that's driving me batty. The problem is that so many people seem to be moving ahead in leaps and bounds and some of us, who have been working with Poser for years, are struggling to keep up. And some, like me, just don't get it, no matter how you explain it. It's like that soft global light set, the thing is awesome, but if you want the light anywhere other than dead center of your scene you have to deal with a bazillion light handles (ok, I'm exaggerating - it's only something like 26) and you get overwhelmed just thinking about changing anything. I dunno. I guess I just feel like I'm being left behind in the dust with a confused look on my face at times. I'll get over it. Kate (who still reserves the right to gripe about it from time to time. g)

sigh Im glad Im not the only one having trouble with those skirts as well :) Maybe that is why we are seeing a lot of renders without using the skirts?? :)

Well, fyrene, the egyptians are now officially on the back burner. I just got the frigate from Sams3D and since I have PhilC's romantix and absolute the perfect pose for walking down a dock on a dark night... well... you'll see... wicked chuckle Kate (runs off muttering to herself about brocades and that rapier hilt is way too shiny and...)

I hate to say I'm happy to se you all having trouble, but I guess it might be the ol' "misery loves company" syndrome. I don't have the new Egypt pack...but I know where you all are on the other stuff. Just knowing that you don't all understand and use those tools right from the start makes me feel not quite as dense. I was afaid it was just me....as usual. Beav

I actually don't have any of this stuff. I just enjoy hanging with Kate. :) Besides, I was talking about something else altogether.

OH Kate, You have no idea on being "serger" impaired...I use one everyday to make a paycheck for myself...You also have no idea as to how ready I am to throw the two that I own out the window at any given moment....By comparision they make Poser look easy!! They truly must have been created by the devil himself considering what a pain in the rear they are to deal with...Poser seems simple by comparision and that is really going out into left field saying such...

Y'know, this is exactly how I feel about Poser. Every time I figure something out, either Poser comes up with some new weird glitch (or randomly changes behavior so what I thought I know is not right anymore) or some new amazing invention comes out of the blue to make me feel old and out of it. I've bee working with Poser ever since 4 came out, and I still am fighting with joint parameters, and Poser wins at least half the time! :) I just about got the hang of Mat poses, and then MORs came along. And now Bodyhandles and sitting skirts and of course, all the emc, erc, jrc, crosstalk stuff, which I've been meaning to take a peek at any day now ever since Rob and Nerd made their big announcement many moons ago. Sigh. BTW, I don't even know what a serger is, but if it's worse than Poser, I hope I never find out! :) Regards- Lemurtek, mad scientist, losing the war with Poser

hey Kennect, don't you just love it when your serger breaks a thread? It's so much FUN to re-thread them, ain't it? (Yes, I'm being VERY sarcastic here) Lemurtek - a serger is a type of sewing machine that requires four spools of thread at the same time and makes all those nifty little sewn edges and hems (you know the ones - just look at the inside seams of pretty much any T-Shirt you own and it's most likely a serged seam) and it's a real nightmare to run all those threads through the proper channels and loops and such. Well gang, y'all have really cheered me up a lot here. I was really beginning to think I was the only "old timer" who had trouble with stuff like this. It's like, if you've been using poser for more than a month or two you're supposed to know all this stuff. I've been using Poser 4 since it was first released (I preordered it way back when) and I'm doing good just to get the clothes to conform and my figures posed without them going into convulsions - and that's on a GOOD day. =) Kate (who has given up on the idea of having a stern talk with PhilC about the texture templates for the romantix set and is just gonna smack him upside the head one of these days instead g) ::: wanders off muttering to herself about freakin' blurry jpegs and no .obj files for the flippin' hat or sword props... :::

I'm really glad to find this thread. I thought I was one of the only "Poser impaired" person. Body handles are supposed to be such a good idea, but no one has really explained them right yet. If they had, we wouldn't have so many people saying they don't understand them. Sharkey and Jaager (and others like them) have a certain technical level that is beyond many of us. They have a lot in common with "computer programmers" who think nothing of writing all their own code. This is all so simple and easy to them. I don't think they understand that not everyone is "built the same way," and that this stuff isn't so easy for others. I've struggled with some simple Poser stuff, as much, or more than most people here. Heck, I had Poser since Version 1, in 1996, and didn't learn Poser till Version 4.03 a year ago!!! One recurring problem with Poser-related items is the almost total lack of documentation. We're lucky if some readme files even tell us the name of the item, who made it, and what the heck it is. I read the DAZ tech tip on Body Handles, and scratched my head like many others. They were good at describing the Theory or Principle, but not how to use them. This problem is like so many other computer areas. Some people "know their stuff," but have almost no ability to help others understand how to use it. That's why you can find a "third party book" on just about any software title. That's why I sometimes make a tutorial after I've struggled to learn something myself. I'm good at making complex things simple for others to understand. The catch is that I need to understand it first. And it seems like I can be a pretty slow learner sometimes. Maybe the "techies" such as Jaager can try to understand this isn't so simple for many of us. Maybe they can figure how to explain this stuff in simpler terms. Or maybe they can find someone to help bridge the gap between the "techies and slower learners" like myself?! Maybe they can learn that sometimes a tool or program such as MAT Pose Edit are better or easier for us than using a text editor? Ron

Hey Ron, if you think that those guys only understand Poser, and do not understand how to teach...well, then you simply haven't been paying attention. Jaager will tell you exactly everything you need to know (if you ask nicely, I assume), and sharkey has created one of the best Lightwave rendering tutorials in existence. Yes. These guys know their shit, to be sure, but they are not unapproachable. Maybe, for a minute, Ron, consider that this shit isn't here for you exclusively Or, rather, that if you can't hang and learn, you're screwed. Just like in real life, you know? It's funny dude... you really are the first person I ever have seen getting upset when TOO MUCH information was given. Most people will complain about too little, generally.....

Thanks for the tip, Mallen. I'll give it a shot in a bit, after I've had some sleep. Kate (who just pulled another all night texture session)

MikeJ, "Hey Ron, if you think that those guys only understand Poser, and do not understand how to teach...well, then you simply haven't been paying attention. Jaager will tell you exactly everything you need to know (if you ask nicely, I assume), and sharkey has created one of the best Lightwave rendering tutorials in existence. Yes. These guys know their shit, to be sure, but they are not unapproachable." I'm speaking from my own experience. It took a few days or weeks of going back and forth between Jaager and Gaz to get a handle on Crosstalk. The final key was a few ICQ sessions where Gaz and I worked together on one of my characters. I was unable to get any further followup. I waited a few weeks or a month and recreated what I had learned. Then I made the tutorial that I now provide. (I give Gaz and Jaager complete credit for teaching this method.) "Maybe, for a minute, Ron, consider that this shit isn't here for you exclusively Or, rather, that if you can't hang and learn, you're screwed. Just like in real life, you know?" If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother to spend my own time and energy helping others. And I wouldn't have bothered to comment in this thread. "It's funny dude... you really are the first person I ever have seen getting upset when TOO MUCH information was given. Most people will complain about too little, generally....." Again, you missed the point. I was saying that sometimes those who have the greater knowledge lack the ability to understand that others are not at the same level. They lack the ability to explain to the "Poser impaired," the true newbie who has difficulties understanding the subject. By the way I've seen many Poser tutorials that leave me scratching my head and wondering if these people even read their own work. But we'll save that for another time. Ron

I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this thread for taking the time to comment (even when I don't agree with one or two of 'em!)..... I've only been struggling with Poser for a couple of months, but my self-esteem has taken quite a beating. I was beginning to believe I was such a moron that I'd never learn it without a whole brain transplant. I needed to know that there were others out there experiencing the same frustrations that I am. I agree 100% with jjsemp--Poser has a lot of evolving to do. It's tricky to use, much more so than, for example, Bryce. Susan Kitchen's book on that B2 gives you enough information, clearly stated, that almost any artist can tackle even the Deep Texture Editor after reading the book. Is there such a book for Poser?

I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this thread for taking the time to comment (even when I don't agree with one or two of 'em!)..... I've only been struggling with Poser for a couple of months, but my self-esteem has taken quite a beating. I was beginning to believe I was such a moron that I'd never learn it without a whole brain transplant. I needed to know that there were others out there experiencing the same frustrations that I am. I agree 100% with jjsemp--Poser has a lot of evolving to do. It's tricky to use, much more so than, for example, Bryce. Susan Kitchen's book on that B2 gives you enough information, clearly stated, that almost any artist can tackle even the Deep Texture Editor after reading the book. Is there such a book for Poser?

Patricia, There are books for Poser, but I haven't heard that any of them are really great. We don't have anything like the "PhotoShop Wow!" books. Anthony Hernandez writes the docs for Poser and stops in here occasionally; questions and areas where the documentation is vague can be addressed to him (otherwise how will he know what we need to learn?). We do have some excellent tutorials. Brycetech is doing for Poser what he did for Bryce. PoserArcana has an extensive collection of tutorials, by a variety of authors. Anton, Jaager, Phil, Traveler, Nerd, Rob, Bloodsong, etc., (the true Poser gurus) are all ready and willing to answer questions without making a big deal of the help they offer. Hmmm... www.PoserArcana.com is probably the first place I'd recommend. Nerd (www.nerd3d.com) and Traveler (www.morphworld3.com) and Bloodsong (www.3dmenagerie.com) have tutorials on their websites. Nerd's got a nifty fog tool and Traveler is the master of morphs and Bloodsong has managed to increase our "zoo" by leaps and bounds... and that is just her antelope pack. They are as generous with their freebies as with their time and learning, too. I'm typing these URLs off the top of my head, so if any aren't quite right, someone will probably correct them. Carolly

Hi there, I get alot of email from people that don't seem to ever read the read-me files I painstakingly take to write. lol Skirt have no buttock groups. So pose must have buttocks at zero. Use dials not translate tools. Other than that there should no problems. It is all in the read me.

Anton Kisiel designs antonk68@aol.com www.antonkisieldesigns.com Rulers of Egypt -The clothing can be accessed through "Anton's Egyptians" librariy folders. All textures are already applied. -MAT files are located in Pose folder "Anton'sEgyptiansMAT" -MAT files for Michael and Vicki's textures are located in Pose folder "Anton'sMW MAT" & Anton'sMM MA". TEXTURES no not use eyebrows. Make invisible. -Face morph depicted in ad renders is Anton's PromoGirl free included in Daz's Spywear. Skirts: This package includes a new experimental skirt design that finally allows Poser skirts to kneel, sit, and move realistically without a stiff center piece. Not without compromises, the skirt offer new freedom in posable clothing. Unfortuanely the new figure design is confusing to Poser causing the re-odered shins to move unexpectedly if conformed. The skirts can be conformed but the user must adjust the shins to comphensate for over-rotation caused when the thighs are moved. And skirts cannot be scaled. This is not a flaw in your purchase in anyway, simply a design limitation in Poser. At this time there is no solution for the conforming conflict. Updates will be made available if a solution becomes possible. All other clothing items included are conformable. ------------------------important--------------------------------------------- However, the skirt will perfectly receive any Poser you apply to the main figure snapping right into place. Like most skirts, the new design doesn't use "buttock" groups. Make sure that the pose you use doesn't use posing of the buttocks. ------------------------important--------------------------------------------- Posing 1) Select Michael or Vicki and apply pose 2) Select Skirt and apply the same pose. again be sure buttocks are set to zero in bpose. Use the thighs instead. The shins of the skirt are represented by bodyhandles. WHAT ARE BODYHANDLES? Bodyhandles are bodyparts not intended to be rendered that allow advance posing of the figure where traditional bodyparts are not appropriate. They allow movement without morphs. They have their own material and should be made invisible prior to rendering. Notes: -If using STephanie turn off her full body morph. -Always turn off Ik chains befor conforming clothes. -Clothing is form fitting. Use Vicki's and Michael's body morphs to remove any poking oppose to resizing clothes (Vicki 2.0 Michael 2.0 recommended). If you are not going to see the underlying body part make it invisible. Restrictions: Textures and models must never be redistributed. The .cr2's for the skirts cannot be used by third parties to animate their of skirt meshes. Similar skirt cr2's will be checked for duplication and copyright infringment. As with meshes, textures, and morphs, these two included .cr2's and the values recorded within are considered the intellectual property of Anton Kisiel. Questions can be emailed to me at Antonk68@aol.com FUN Facts: -Bodyhair was considered unclean. Much or all hair was shaved for men and women including eyebrows and scalps. Wigs were preferred over real hair. -The Vulture Crown is the traditional headdress of Isis, cleopatra's patron goddess. -Linens were pleated by pressing wet fabric in a mold. -Most egyptian women did not where clothing above the waist. -Slaves never wore clothing. -Leather clothing was often guilded with gold paints. -The heavy ornate collars prevented the wearer from lifting their arms high above them. This was frowned upon as that exposing the armpit was offensive. -Priests where shaved bare and wore long skirts and robes. -Noone moved before pharoh did and always stayed behind him. Enjoy. Anton's Treasures of Egypt also available at Daz

Also, remember that Poses do not move the "body" so your figures "body" must be zero.

that's what it was, Anton. I did read the readme file, but there's always so much info in them that I manage to forget at least one step. The "zero buttocks" was the step I missed this time. It's getting to the point where I'm gonna have to start printing out the readme's and keeping them in a 3 ring binder or something just to have them at hand when I'm working. yeesh. Thanks for the reminder. I still reserve the right to gripe about the poser interface, though, ok? =) KateTheSenile (trying to forget the time she forgot how to use Objaction Mover and had to do a search of the archives for step by step instructions)

The .cr2's for the skirts cannot be used by third parties to animate their of skirt meshes. Similar skirt cr2's will be checked for duplication and copyright infringment. As with meshes, textures, and morphs, these two included .cr2's and the values recorded within are considered the intellectual property of Anton Kisiel. Very interesting. Does "Similar" mean nobody else can do the grouping, parenting, and manual welding you did even if they did not cut and paste from your cr2?

That just means you cannpt plug your mesh into my joint parameters. The design took alot of work. I just don't want people duplicating my joint parameters just by changing the obj line to point to their mesh like some of the Vicki imitations use her cr2. The design of course is Poser and I don't control that. I just don't want people using my work to make a quicky version to sell themselves. Not trying to be an ogre. ;)

I'm sure (and hope) the people who are able to understand/use your discovery would be nice enough to check with you first anyway. They'd have been long enough in the game to have learnt that lesson. :)

Sure. Say someone makes a kilt and steals your numbers so that their bagpiper can make manly strides without his, um, skirt flying up... by the time you got done chasing them, they wouldn't have enough air to blow a tin whistle, much less a full set of pipes. OTOH, if someone understands what you did well enough to go back to Poser and build something new (spending a few weeks of sweat and work) they might be able to carry the tool another step or in another direction. Considering how long we've known about ERC and how many people really understand it... you probably don't have much to worry about in that regard. I'm just glad that people like you are extending the frontiers for us! Carolly