that reminds me: i just got a book from my bookclub that addresses games in vb with dx8. the dx8 sdk is included. i cant use it yet as i have to upgrade to vb6. it seems to have some bang for the buck though and the lessons are of Andre LeMoth quality. its called "Windows game programming with visual basic and directx" about $40.00. http://www.quepublishing.com/ not that i'm recommending it or anything... -o.k. BYE