3 minutes a frame is great..even 15 minutes is great...even 30 minutes is great however, I dont make scenes that take 3, 15, or 30 minutes. Not sure I've ever done that. Debbie'd beat me up if I did :P My scenes in general, take days..sometimes weeks, because I like detail. so if my average scene takes 8 days to render on bryce 4 its no real big deal cause I was used to it. But when 5 came out, tests were done and it was shown that 5 renders ~15% slower on pc's (for the exact same scene)...and really, no big difference shown in render quality. Especially none to account for the increased time. And B5 also imports objects MUCH slower than 4. as for optimizing, Im the one who posted how to do that. I can indeed MAKE bryce 5 render as fast as bryce 4 for the same scene, but I shouldnt have to do that. It just looks like theyve adjusted the priority of bryce renderings in relation to other things happening on your computer so that if anything else is happening at all, it slows down. This could probably be but back the way it was if an option was put in the preferences for 'priority' and not forcing a programmed priority on a user. but like clay said, this horse has been beaten until its nothing but dust. I only use 5 when I want trees or to answer questions. I have all windows versions of bryce as well as other apps I can use if I want. Its just that my primary interest is/was bryce..and I hate to let that go. It's kinda sad. BT