max3.1 I'm building with meshes what I'm doing is getting a sphere/cone etc. and applying modifiers to them, the horns and teeth are just spheres with modifiers, so I can change their parameters later the head itself, because I need to do more modelling on, I then converted to an editable mesh. I haven't used patches or nurbs, but I've got a book permanantly on the desk behind me, and I've found I'm able to look up how to do things rather easily, just as long as I know what I want to do SewerRat