Saxon, 1) Poser 5 isn't mythical. Steve would probably build another dungeon level just for me if I said anything more, and it is really hard to type while hanging upside down and fending off fire ants. 2) ProPack and AvatarLab are not merely ornamental. They have their attractions, but there were practical reasons behind the construction of both of them. These programs were not from DAZ or the community, but from the source itself. We have more interaction with the direction of development of this program than any other user group I've seen, but we can't claim credit for all the innovations since the release of Poser 4. Carolly