Hey all!

Cool discussion... I just figure I'll comment on some things that struck me.

ronknights "I have a great deal of trouble with people who insist on piercing as a means of expressing individuality."

So do I... though it happens in all times, in all places. The thing is - not everyone who does a thing does it to be part fo a crowd... even though many others do it. Take music for instance. You hear a group and you liek them, you buy the albums and it is something YOU like. It turns out a few 10's of millions of others like them... does that somehow make that music less an expression of yourself? Of course not.

If someone gets a piercing because all their friends have one, then they are expressing a desire to be part of the group their friends form. That might be a perfectly good way to show solidarity and strength - individuality is also expressed by the groups we choose to align ourselves with of course.

If someone gets a piercing because they feel left out without one, then I see your point.

The people I know who are pierced are very, very much not being "joiners" in this. Did many of them start piercing themselves after it got "popular?" Sure. But that's because it also became a LOT safer, a lot less expensive and a lot easier to go about ones life with a piercing. This isn't a life's work for them... they didn't want to change society. They just think having a tongue piercing looks cool and is pretty cool for oral sex :) So when the trend dramatically raised the ease of doing it, and lowered the potential down side they went ahead and did it.

It is ever thus. Some people see a fashion, r a trend, or a "new thing" and it genuinely works for them, it simply "fits" them/ Others do it because everyone else is doing it. These two groups are easily confused.

To dismiss everyone with a tattoo or a piercing as "merely beginning their journey" is as inaccurate and sweeping as some peopel saying anyone without a piercing is simply too stodgy and drone-like to dream of getting one. Whenever you generalize an entire groups philosophical development on so little data you are probably wrong :)

RadArt "do they know that not only their manly "walk" gives them away...but also those big masculine bones...big oversized hands...can they be comfortable...and do they perhaps try just a little too hard to appear feminine...to the point wear one just knows they are trying too hard...??"

I know several guys who sped a lot of time in women's clothing. None of them happen to be gay as it turns out though of course there are many who are in the world. In any case, no, they don't generally think they are fooling anyone. Being able to "pass" is a goal that many of them don't even consider an important one.

RadArt "suppose what I mean is, when something is GONE like that, it is GONE and someday you may again change your views, habits, fashions, interests, look, appearance, sex, visa card, whatever"

And that's OK. I know people who have had a tattoo and later decided that they didn't liek it, or wanted it changed/gone. They deal with it or have it altered. The fact of the matter is that we are ALWAYS making choices on life that we cannot "take back" as if they never happened. Relationships, jobs, politics, religion and more... why is it that this is the one place where we should be afraid to make a mistake?

Kimiko has a tattoo that says "Servant of Soulhuntre" (approximately) on the back of her neck in Kanji. There are marks for each year we have been together. If she and I "split up" that will no longer be accurate.  But every time she sees it she will remember our time, and how it was, and what it meant to her... and she is more than willing to take that "risk". Besides, it looks damn hot :)

Anyway, enjoy!