I am Using Poser 4.03 the latest patch out there and Bryce 5 latest patches out there So I should not be rotating 180 degrees? Every tutorial I have seen says Bryce 3 on up to. And John let me tell you that your tutorial was the one that got me this far. The others were not even close. You have probably the best tutorial out there in my opinion I really wish you would update it though I actually learned quite a lot from your tutorial, the proper grouping of the meshes and then renaming them in poser he magnets to make a bagy shirt and so on. You really cover a lot of things in there and like the different versions notation and the different patches to poser thans for the tips I will try those. I haven't abandoned this project just getting frustrated and put it on hold to mess with the dragon one. the shadows are heavy enough to where it doesn't need to be an awsome texture and was able to make my own snakeskin texture fromphotos of snakes which works pretty well for it. But lease update your tutorial because it is one of the best I have seen lots of screen shots and step by step.