Dolphin, Don't challenge Ron like that - I don't want to see what'll happen! grin I said mine weren't gonna make you happy. And yeah, a bump map (properly made) can help. Doesn't matter how you're rendering. And people keep saying that about Brendan - I sure don't see it :) The whole facial structure is different, I think it's the personality or something. But thanks anyways :) Lyrra