I am a sucker for the thrice repeated thread titles, Adam, and I apologize for missing it until now. Thanks to your "echo,echo,echo" and Trimegisto's great name, I got one of my best personal works out of it, "Thoth Cubed", working with refraction envelopes in Bryce 3, then really serious work in Adobe 5.0, which I just bought last December. Not only that the "echo,echo,echo" thread got me using contours in Corel Draw 9, worked over as terrain maps in Abobe, and some interesting effects in Brcye that I'd been after for a long time. So thanks all. I don't have a website yet, or I'd post "Thoth", but I am working on two or three, so we'll see. I fell into some commercial work, mostly for print, some while ago, and that's why I bought Adobe, which is an absolute requirement for that, but it's great all around, and I appreciate all the tips from everyone, including the more recent one in 3D Sprite's postings.Thanks all, Hopalong