hey virus i hadnt heard of Virtools before, and i thought i had done an extensive search on real time 3D.. thanks.. oh another one that will handle BVH via a python script is blender.. which has been discontinued by its makes, however i read recently that it is now open source.. so i hope someone picks it up and expands on it.. it really had potential for modeling and rendering not to mention the game engine.. i did manage to import the p4low models into GS, it worked but slow, (just wanted to see it i could be done and how it looked). just seemed to me there might be a much faster way to render poser scenes, since the poser rendering isnt that great anyways. what would take several minutes for poser to render would take about a second for something simular in openGL or D3D on a game engine. well no serious work, just seeing what happens.. :-)