"I AM mad as hell because Poser 4 users have been pretty much ignored by CL since the last patch" Probably because they are working like slaves to create Poser 5. "How long have they been using that one?" Well, have you seen the pictures of Poser 5?! "1) multiplying magnets" I don't use magnets. "2) the magnets themselves (awful to work with)" Use morphs instead then. "2) jumping cameras" Not a big problem for me. "3) memory leaks and computer lock ups" Not a big problem for me. Maybe you need a more powerful computer here. "4) terrible texture handling" Poser's been pretty good here, I think. "5) crosstalk" Honestly, I have no idea what this is. Apparently its a problem, because I've seen all kinds of fixes for it, but it's not hampering me any. "6) horrible, antiquated "library" (file) system" Ding ding ding ding. Good point here! "8) impossible-to-read dial lables" Change your background, however, I hate those yellow ones in the PPP. "9) mysterious, unmoveable "window-in-the-upper-left-corner" I don't have Pro pack, I guess this is in that version? And those are just off the top of my head. And I don't do animations, there's probably a few in that area, too. "STILL haven't told us the upgrade price." Yeah, I would like to know that too. Hurry CL! =0) "added features that many will never use" Like what? Collision detection? I'll use that. Strand based hair?! Oh yeah. 3D modelling from a photo? Sure, I'll use that. I just WANT TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS WITH MIKE, Vicky and Steph! =-) "Ooh, but there's strand-based hair! Was that high on the Poser 5 wish list?" Uhh, yeeeah. "I might have missed it but I didn't see one mention of it reading the past posts. Material Editor???? How many asked for that?" Uh, I'll take it! "rush to kiss his butt instead of demanding fair treatment." Well, as an artist, let me say that Poser has enabled me to do things NO OTHER PROGRAM WOULD LET ME DO. This program is Unique, and that's why CL has no competition. One thing that really pushed Poser 4 into the next gen was Mike and Vicky. They are the after burners of Poser, but the program itself is still AFFORDABLE by my standards (anything $300 and DOWN) - now, this new price is a little high for me, but the upgrade price, I'm hoping, will fall around $200 and down. With my defense of CL said, you're not alone in your disappointment. I've seen others here express similar feelings - I think Poser 5 will silence the critics though. Ben