Mr Whisenant: Thank you sir for coming in and confirming what many in this thread already knew...that the people at CL are the same ones who developed Poser. CL themselves state it on their web site: "Fans of the application will be pleased to know that Curious Labs is made up of the core engineering and development staff that worked on Poser at MetaCreations." But unfortunately, many of the flag-wavers aren't interested in facts, just excuses. That was one of my beefs originally, that the members here, instead of demanding fair treatment, have adopted an attitude of complacency and even began making up their own excuses for CL's behavior. Speaking of that: Leather-guy, Okay, now it's been a week since siggraph ended. And 4 days since Mr Cooper got back. But STILL no upgrade price, no official release date, and no updated web page. What's the excuse now? By the way, I can update a web page with new text and pictures in about an hour. And is Mr C the only guy at CL that can put info on their web site? jjsemp: "Poser 5 IS the bug fix for Poser 4" LOL! You're right, unfortunately. Or, let's HOPE your right. Can anyone here compare this situation to any other type of purchase? Lets say I buy a new car, the MitchuToy ExCusmi. It runs great! Gets me from point A to B perfectly. Of course, two of the windows only go down halfway and I can't read the radio's digital readout, and the trunk lid sticks. Oh, but those are just minor inconveniences, I'm sure they'll get them fixed soon. Oh, and one other thing, once in awhile, the engine just dies for no reason. But thats no big thing. I just get out and push it off the road and it restarts in a few minutes. No big thing. Oh, I just called the dealer about the "inconveninces." He said I'd have to wait and buy next year's model. They'll be fixed then. But they won't fix the problems with my model. Oh, I can't wait for the next model year so I can buy another ExCusmi that works. Kupa: Thank you for the straight answer on crosstalk. Very nice to hear. Now can we have the release date and upgrade price???